allthrottle&nobottle

I was choosing between PPG or 921s...........I have been doing my reasearch
(**** Nuc Engineering background) I got off the phone with Comp about their 921 kit ......They said the price will eventually come down but right now if they sell at $499 a kit.........then we will keep selling at $499 a kit.
I asked him point blank why I should spend $210 more for his kit w/o locks.....
He said I have heard no bad about the PP gold kit..........nor have I and I have a local guy that has a new kit for $260. IT IS SOLD;
I went with PPG and will not look back........IMHEO 921 is a good spring but no better and the finishing on the PPG is better at reducing stress risers.
Here is some prior thread specifics:

https://ls1tech.com/forums/corvette-performance/255839-97i-back-road-after-valve-spring-replacement.html
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-internal-engine/233785-comp-vs-crane-vs-patriot-vs-precision-vs-rev.html

J-Rod

A couple of things.

There are only about 5 spring companies in the United States. They make the springs for all the OEMs, and for the aftermarket. The PRC/Patriot spring comes from the same plant in Dallas.

Keep in mind that by them buying direct, they are just short cutting places like Comp, etc... and there is one layer of markup that is removed.


If you knew who made what springs, you could buy 921s, Isky Tool Room, or Comp 977's, or anything else much cheaper than you do from the cam companies.

This isn't an ad for PRC, or a recommendation of the spring over anything else. It just a fact that needs to be pointed out so folks understand why these springs are more competetively priced than many of the other springs out there.

I have heard more and more about valves being off-spec lately (wrong diameter, wrong groove, etc....) and causing issues that have been blamed on keepers, retainers, material quality, etc...

DAPSUPRSLO

iTrader: (14)

Good post J. This is making me feel better about my patriots and LSK intake lobe.

Yeah, I think people need to do more investigation when a part does not fit properly, hence my other post. Just because you can find a good deal on something doesn't always mean it is an inferior product.

Ed Curtis

Right on J-rod...

Good springs are available from US sources. The "vendor" just has to put the consumer in front of their bottomline.

The "other" issue is "Where are the peripherals made?"

Are the locks made per spec? We've already seen where a "Rip-off and Duplicate" type of source has had lock failures. Are they even US made products or just another overseas knock off?? You need to ask!

The latest "item" I've seen coming around in the LS1 market place is "cheapie" camshafts. Private label grinds that are far from what's advertised, being only a "budget" item with no quality. Some of these grinds are from "south of the border" and their quality is sorely lacking. If it looks like too good of a deal, beware!

A lot of titanium stuff has been coming from Russia, Israel and a few other "over-seas" sources. I can't tell how many times people bring "Herbert" or other "cheapie import" parts to me to install. I just toss them away and use USA parts. Yeah they're more money but when you can see up to .060" difference in installed heights in one package of ti retainers, well the QC is not a priority. Price is!

The old caveat holds true. "You get what you pay for"

Ed

Cstraub

iTrader: (1)

Hmm,
Let's think about this, keeper is larger so that means more of the retainer material has to be removed. If that is the case then the retainer is lighter. Sure the super 7 maybe a gram heavier but the insurance is worth it.

Chris

Cstraub

iTrader: (1)

and to add to what Ed said. The GM stamped locks in cost comparison to the Super 7 machined locks are about 400% cheaper to mfg. To my limited knowledge of my industry there is not a "serious" race engine in competition running stamped locks.

Chris

Gunnar@Patriot

iTrader: (20)

Our spring is a great spring and it's place is exactly where we recommend it be used. It needs to used in the correct fashion with cams that fall into the specs that our springs are tested and approved for. As far as putting them in a hp level, that is a little hard to do. Yes, we have several guys running in the 400+ range. We also have many, many customers running 500,600,700, and even 900+ rwhp using our spring kits.

Yes, there are many spring kits out there. However, if you compare springs that are in the same "class" as ours, you will find that our spring is the best choice on the market for quailty, price, and service.

GrannySShifting

iTrader: (10)

I have some of those PRC/Patriot springs goign in some cars, lookign for even some stock style locks, but not that loose *** stock fit for ****. Anyone know a known good lock to use with the PRC spring/retainer?

DavidNJ

That is were we agree. I were building a modified Camaro or Firebird on a budget, I think I would use your heads, springs, and maybe rockers and cam. Maybe on the cam.

So where do your heads, valves, and springs come from?

David

Ed Curtis

The only thing I have for stock 8 mm valves is the "Super Seven" style. There has to be a supplier for the standard seven degree retainers around somewhere. Check with Chris Straub, he's got a few "connections"...

Ed

Gunnar@Patriot

iTrader: (20)

Our heads are OEM GM

Valves are a 23-8N stainless made by the same manufactuer that Porsche uses (as we have stated before)

Springs are from Associated Spring (as we have stated before)

We have answered all of these questions before. It seems that these issues are made more difficult than they really are. When you have lower overhead, combined with quality and volume of sales, you can offer a quality product backed by great service at a lower price than others. Of course for this to happen your organization must be efficient.

TVWilkes

I call BS,The super 7 locks and the seat bases were quoted in china for manufacturing.The retainers are now being manufactured in Ukraine.The retainer quality is suspect to me,because of the price.Titanium prices in the usa are at $29-$39 dollars per pound,for quality material.This breaks down to about $3.00 per retainer for just the material,before manufacturing.Manufacturing can cost about another $3.00.Depending on quantity you can get the price down a little.The completed suspect Ukraine retainer is cheaper than what you can buy the material for in the USA.

The PRC kit uses all 100% made in the USA parts.This allows for better quality control.

Ed Curtis

Well....

Um....

I guess I'm glad you said that Terry. Cuz I know if I brought it up, I'd barraged with the old "non-sponsor" comments from the trolls.

Nothing but USA here too!

Ed

cyphur

iTrader: (10)

I'm glad I've read this thread. Some of the best spring info I've seen around in a while. Ed, forget all those haters w/the "non-sponser" crap...you always have the real deal when it comes to info around here, along with CStraub. I among many others definitely appreciate your sharing of said info

Also, DavidNJ, EVERYONE builds their car on a budget, whether it be $2k, $8k, or just drafting out of a bank account that has more digits than an IP address. If I had all sorts of money I'd run 921's myself. However, seeing as how nobody has broken a PP Gold spring or PRC spring yet, running the exact types of setup/s I'm going to be, what should prompt me to worry? Their springs definitely fill a space, and thats one of a top-notch affordable spring for people not willing to line Comp's pockets....which definitely aren't nervous

Gunnar@Patriot

iTrader: (20)

1. If there is a doubt where we buy our super 7 locks, talk to Chris at B & B.

2. Just because a company requests a quote on pricing it does not mean a transaction takes place.

3. We NOW have excellent QC.

4. As far as labor and material being more economical out of country, certainly this is true. Ask GM, why else would they cast parts, such as heads, out of country?

We are constantly trying to bring the best quality products to our customers at reasonable prices. We have no individual, personal agendas that would offset this goal. We work as a team and stay focused on our services and products we offer to our customers... especially R & D and QC.

TVWilkes

I am well aware that Chris @ B&B sold the locks.I talked with him about the blanket purchase from B&B.I am also well aware of the fact that china quoted them for 1/3 the price of B&B.I know the mindset that takes place over there,price sells,quality is second.This will always be true,it happens everyday with both companies.

With nearly all of the head products that are bought in quantity are being imported,the track record shows the others will be as well.



Explane your QC process?I am certified in Quality System Analyst (ISO 9000).I was told that it will take to long,no need for it.

I have worked for over 15 years in the metal industry ( Tool & Die maker/Enginnering ),there is some cheap materials being manufactured over the water.I am sure GM also sends Engineers and other personal over to garuantee quality.How many trips have someone from there made?As far as R&D,lets not go there.I heard many times,"No need to reinvent the wheel".

Gunnar@Patriot

iTrader: (20)

Terry,
Good luck, we hope you do well with your business.

Pro Stock John

iTrader: (34)

Ed, I ran a set of Crane 99893's with my 700-738rwhp setup. That was with my old 230/236 cam. They have an OD of 1.43 or 1.46, and are doubles.

Might work nice for you depending on what cam you have, and how much open and closed spring pressure you would shoot for. I was at 380-400 open, and 140 closed. I am running Comp R lifters too. I believe my installed heighth was 1.80. I am running .100 longer Manley SD valves. My combo used to pull clean to 7100.

I went more cam (236/246), and might now have some float at 6500+. Plan is to go Comp 977 and shoot for 450 open and like 155-165 closed. 165 closed is generally the limit suggested by the companies I have talked to for hydraulic stuff. Howeever, I run comp R lifters and I have been told I need all that spring pressure to make the combo work.

Make sure you know what OD you can work with and what installed heighth you can get to. Crane 99893's are nice dropins.

BrentB@TEA

Don't nit pick. I stand by my statement that the PRC kit is lighter. Have you checked the fitament with the keepers in question? Oh you build them Sorry to step on any toes

DavidNJ

For $200 you can get Ti keepers. Otherwise, that discussion is useless.