Setting initial lash for adjustable rockers?
On The Tree
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From: DFW
the whole point of me saying that is because i know 2 turns is way to much. 2 damn turns equal .060-.080. correct. So i'm not chancing my opinion about the turnns being to much, because i wouldn't put that much preload. So You still don't have an educated awnser for me. No matter what you post it's still not going to change anything. You made yourself abvious when you bashed on teachers and education.
Last edited by NASTE_SS; Feb 27, 2005 at 11:17 PM.
welcome to page 3. 3 more to go. you might not put that much preload, only because that's what you were taught and now believe. now my educated statement on adjusting the vinci/crane rockers came directly from vinci themselves. so, why, in my right mind (after all i'm left handed), would i tell someone to do something less? my educated answer came directly from the teacher and maker of the product. now tomorrow, go ask your teacher again about thread pitches and how they change the amount of turns it takes to get to the same distance.
i only bashed education because you called me uneducated. again, if you hadn't started it, we wouldn't be on page 3 now would we. again, you weren't taught/educated by the makers of the product. so how could you come close to having the correct answer? because this other book/person said do it this way?
apparantly 'knowing' that 2 turns is way too much, shows that it time for some updated educating. apparantly, .060-.080 isn't too much nowadays. like i said, let the past go. the LSx motors aren't based on old day technology.
i only bashed education because you called me uneducated. again, if you hadn't started it, we wouldn't be on page 3 now would we. again, you weren't taught/educated by the makers of the product. so how could you come close to having the correct answer? because this other book/person said do it this way?
apparantly 'knowing' that 2 turns is way too much, shows that it time for some updated educating. apparantly, .060-.080 isn't too much nowadays. like i said, let the past go. the LSx motors aren't based on old day technology.
here. let me help support your education. here's a tech article i made for my local car club regarding rockers. http://www.fl-thirdgen.org/rockerswap.html completely go right with what you have said.
what is this? my third comment saying you're a nice person and educated as well?
what is this? my third comment saying you're a nice person and educated as well?
On The Tree
Joined: Oct 2004
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From: DFW
Originally Posted by mrr23
welcome to page 3. 3 more to go. you might not put that much preload, only because that's what you were taught and now believe. now my educated statement on adjusting the vinci/crane rockers came directly from vinci themselves. so, why, in my right mind (after all i'm left handed), would i tell someone to do something less? my educated answer came directly from the teacher and maker of the product. now tomorrow, go ask your teacher again about thread pitches and how they change the amount of turns it takes to get to the same distance.
i only bashed education because you called me uneducated. again, if you hadn't started it, we wouldn't be on page 3 now would we. again, you weren't taught/educated by the makers of the product. so how could you come close to having the correct answer? because this other book/person said do it this way?
apparantly 'knowing' that 2 turns is way too much, shows that it time for some updated educating. apparantly, .060-.080 isn't too much nowadays. like i said, let the past go. the LSx motors aren't based on old day technology.
i only bashed education because you called me uneducated. again, if you hadn't started it, we wouldn't be on page 3 now would we. again, you weren't taught/educated by the makers of the product. so how could you come close to having the correct answer? because this other book/person said do it this way?
apparantly 'knowing' that 2 turns is way too much, shows that it time for some updated educating. apparantly, .060-.080 isn't too much nowadays. like i said, let the past go. the LSx motors aren't based on old day technology.
Have fun running .060-.080 lash and i'll right you in a year and see how'its doing. Even if i had vinci's rockers i wouldn't want my preload at.060-.080. What i know is my ls1 car is much faster than yours and i own a 7 second buick, so i must be doing something right. The funny thing is i might be the speaker at your local convention center soon and i'd make sure to make you feel very educated lol. I'm done playing cat and mouse with you. My advise is build something fast and then you tell me what your rockers are set at. I know my jesel's won't be that tight. You stick with your vinci and i'll stick to building RACE motors. Oh by the way the comennt on a ls1 not being the same as a sbc chevy, is correct because it's designed differently, but let me ask you this does it have four cycles and does it run and make power the same way. YES it does so to me there all air pumps. A motor is a motor, you need air fuel, and spark correct. Well damn that sounds the same to me, so go tell someone who's cares
well then, i'll look forward to your writing me in april. because that'll be a year. only reason why you have two cars faster than me is because you spent more money than me is all. again, write back here when you talk to your teacher about thread pitch and distances because of it. you might want to learn that just because you do it in a race motor, doesn't mean you do it in a street car. or truck for that matter. maybe call my teacher as well about how the crane/vinci products work. like i have said three times now. do what the manufacturers tell you to do. not what a book or told you to do.
Originally Posted by NASTE_SS
i hope everyone had fun reading this stupid argument, and hopefully Mrr23 will be able to sleep tonight, since i got him all fired up haha.
well looky at that. thought you were done playing cat and mouse. now stop being mad at yourself. i think of you as one of the many other fans i have here.
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Thread Starter
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From: Central, MA
Originally Posted by vettenuts
The Crane lifters are one very high on my list. Can anyone summarize what the problems was and how it was corrected?
Thanks
Thanks
I took too long to rotate the crank around and look for 0-lash on everything. The definition of 0-lash that I used, was not being able to easily turn the pushrods by sticking my two index fingers around the rocker bodies.
Unbeknownst to me, the lifters were bleeding down in that short time, loosening up the pressure on the pushrods, so that they could be turned again. I'd go to double check things, and think that I didn't do a good job the first time around, so I'd snug them up some more. I was putting way too much preload.
The lifters only take about 4-7 minutes to bleed down. I could almost set my watch to the sqeuqence that they would start loosening up.
So the initial 0-lash for these is just finger tight.
Give your 1/4 turn of preload, and feel how the rockers "snug up".
Recheck thing again in about 5 minutes... You should feel that some of the lifters have now loosened up to the point to where they were before you did that last 1/4 turn of preload. They won't be completely sloppy, but they'll be approximately finger-tight again. It's time to give another 1/4 turn.
Repeat until you get the 7 turns... then on the 8th, I went about an 1/8 turn, and then snugged up the posi-lock for another 1/8th turn. This sets things much tigher than just turning the posi-lock on it's own.
Thread Starter
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From: Central, MA
I don't mean to be picky with terminology... but .060-.080 lash WILL probably destroy a motor.
I don't see .060-.080 (or more) preload doing so - at least with the way these rockers are designed.
I don't see .060-.080 (or more) preload doing so - at least with the way these rockers are designed.
Last edited by marc_w; Feb 28, 2005 at 01:42 PM.
GM sets the preload to .120" roger told me. so, .060-.080 is going to be fine. basically, when setting zero lash, only use your fingers to turn the posi locks. that way, you don't accidentally go too far using a wrench. and also like marc_w said, the lifters will bleed down pretty quickly.
ok, roger put up some more instructions on properly preloading the vinci/crane rockers here. http://www.vincihighperformance.com/...20PAGE%20.HTML
ok, roger put up some more instructions on properly preloading the vinci/crane rockers here. http://www.vincihighperformance.com/...20PAGE%20.HTML
Originally Posted by from VHP page
We have had several questions from individuals installing our Crane Gold Race LS1 Rocker Arms about why we wrote the instructions the way we did. Our premise was that most of the time, these rockers would be installed on the engine with the engine in the vehicle. The most important of these considerations is that the stock LS1 valve springs have relatively low seat pressures (70# new and frequently 55-60# after 20-30,000 miles of use). Our instructions call out a procedure of turning the crankshaft one revolution and adjusting any loose rockers to zero lash. Here is where the confusion occurs.
Zero lash should be determined by carefully lifting up on the front of the rocker arm.. at the roller tip and letting the rocker fall against the valve stem. The loose motion, or lash, causes the rocker to click against the valve stem. The adjusting nut should then be adjusted clockwise, by finger, a little at a time, until the click or loose motion is just removed. Do not turn the nut any tighter for this will depress the pushrod into the lifter. When in doubt, back off the nut and repeat the procedure. When all 16 nuts have been zeroed, The engine must be rotated, from the crank pulley bolt, or with a strap wrench. I recommend rotating about 1/4 to 1/2 turn. When you check for zero lash again, you will see that some of the rockers are loose because the cam has rotated and those lifters have moved toward the base circle. Simply repeat the rocker arm lash checking and adjusting procedure again. Next rotate the engine another 1/4 to 1/2 turn. Check lash and adjust again. When you no longer have any loose "clicking rockers", you are finished with step one. Please note that sometimes the engine must be rotated several times before all the loose rockers are at zero lash. Now, you will not rotate the engine again. Step two requires you to tighten the adjusting nuts on all 16 rockers 1/4 turn. Wait about 10 minutes and repeat. That is, rotate the rocker nuts another 1/4 turn. Wait 10 minutes and rotate the nuts 1/4 turn again. You must rotate the rocker nuts, in this manner a full 1 and 1/2 to 1 and 3/4 turns, so keep an accurate count of the number of times you make 1/4 turn adjustments. You must wait 10 minutes between each 1/4 turn rotation to prevent the depressed valves from contacting the pistons. When you have finished the adjustment procedure, tighten the jamb nuts by holding the adjusting nut with your wrench and tightening the jamb nut with an Allen tool. All of this is necessary to allow the “relatively weak” stock valve springs to “bleed down” the hydraulic plunger in the lifter to allow proper lifter preload adjustment. If this procedure is not followed, valves could be “hanging open” when the engine is cranked over. This could result in bent valves. We realize that this procedure seems unnecessary or “overly-complicated” at first glance; but it works and, in the long run, minimizes installation aggravation. The use of higher seat pressure springs can reduce the waiting periods from 10 minutes slightly, during rocker arm installation. If the rockers are being installed as part of a complete rebuild, we recommend adjusting lifter preload to .060 -.100.” Extensive testing has shown this preload to provide the best power and performance, as well as minimizing valve train noise. The tech department at VHP will gladly help you through this procedure if issues occur.
Zero lash should be determined by carefully lifting up on the front of the rocker arm.. at the roller tip and letting the rocker fall against the valve stem. The loose motion, or lash, causes the rocker to click against the valve stem. The adjusting nut should then be adjusted clockwise, by finger, a little at a time, until the click or loose motion is just removed. Do not turn the nut any tighter for this will depress the pushrod into the lifter. When in doubt, back off the nut and repeat the procedure. When all 16 nuts have been zeroed, The engine must be rotated, from the crank pulley bolt, or with a strap wrench. I recommend rotating about 1/4 to 1/2 turn. When you check for zero lash again, you will see that some of the rockers are loose because the cam has rotated and those lifters have moved toward the base circle. Simply repeat the rocker arm lash checking and adjusting procedure again. Next rotate the engine another 1/4 to 1/2 turn. Check lash and adjust again. When you no longer have any loose "clicking rockers", you are finished with step one. Please note that sometimes the engine must be rotated several times before all the loose rockers are at zero lash. Now, you will not rotate the engine again. Step two requires you to tighten the adjusting nuts on all 16 rockers 1/4 turn. Wait about 10 minutes and repeat. That is, rotate the rocker nuts another 1/4 turn. Wait 10 minutes and rotate the nuts 1/4 turn again. You must rotate the rocker nuts, in this manner a full 1 and 1/2 to 1 and 3/4 turns, so keep an accurate count of the number of times you make 1/4 turn adjustments. You must wait 10 minutes between each 1/4 turn rotation to prevent the depressed valves from contacting the pistons. When you have finished the adjustment procedure, tighten the jamb nuts by holding the adjusting nut with your wrench and tightening the jamb nut with an Allen tool. All of this is necessary to allow the “relatively weak” stock valve springs to “bleed down” the hydraulic plunger in the lifter to allow proper lifter preload adjustment. If this procedure is not followed, valves could be “hanging open” when the engine is cranked over. This could result in bent valves. We realize that this procedure seems unnecessary or “overly-complicated” at first glance; but it works and, in the long run, minimizes installation aggravation. The use of higher seat pressure springs can reduce the waiting periods from 10 minutes slightly, during rocker arm installation. If the rockers are being installed as part of a complete rebuild, we recommend adjusting lifter preload to .060 -.100.” Extensive testing has shown this preload to provide the best power and performance, as well as minimizing valve train noise. The tech department at VHP will gladly help you through this procedure if issues occur.
Last edited by mrr23; Feb 28, 2005 at 04:37 PM.
On The Tree
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From: St. Clair
I did the Crane Adj. Lifters after my G5X3 was installed...With the stock lifters, the engine was ticking pretty bad...I followed the instructions down to the letter...First off, I made sure the motor hadn't been cranked over for a couple hours before setting the initial ZERO preload, then rotated the motor over by hand per the instructions and turned each rocker nut 1/4 turn...Waited a half hour, then repeated the 1/4 turn procedure 7 more times with 30 minutes between each tightening session...Yes, it took all day!!!
For what it is worth...I measured the actual amount of preload that 2 full turns of the nut produced...It mic'd out to be exactly 0.090" of preload...
Also, the drivers side valve cover needed a baffle removed and a small amount of grinding for the rockers to clear without hitting...
As for NASTE_SS...The LS1/LS6 is not the same animal as a SBC...Being that the entire motor is ALUMINUM and a SBC is CAST IRON...You can get away with the lower preload on a CAST IRON ENGINE, on an ALL ALUMINUM ENGINE you cannot...Reason being is that aluminum expands considerably more than cast iron does, and as was stated earlier, a small preload can soon turn into negative lash...And HYDRAULIC cams will not hold up to repeated pounding from negative lash, the ramps are a totally different design than a solid roller cam, which IS designed for negative lash...
Peace...Gman
For what it is worth...I measured the actual amount of preload that 2 full turns of the nut produced...It mic'd out to be exactly 0.090" of preload...
Also, the drivers side valve cover needed a baffle removed and a small amount of grinding for the rockers to clear without hitting...
As for NASTE_SS...The LS1/LS6 is not the same animal as a SBC...Being that the entire motor is ALUMINUM and a SBC is CAST IRON...You can get away with the lower preload on a CAST IRON ENGINE, on an ALL ALUMINUM ENGINE you cannot...Reason being is that aluminum expands considerably more than cast iron does, and as was stated earlier, a small preload can soon turn into negative lash...And HYDRAULIC cams will not hold up to repeated pounding from negative lash, the ramps are a totally different design than a solid roller cam, which IS designed for negative lash...
Peace...Gman
marc_w,
Thanks for the write-up. Sorry I missed it before, guess I got lost in some of the other discussions. Good to hear you got it straightened out, I am going to keep your write-up to prevent myself from falling into the same trap.
Thanks for the write-up. Sorry I missed it before, guess I got lost in some of the other discussions. Good to hear you got it straightened out, I am going to keep your write-up to prevent myself from falling into the same trap.
On The Tree
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From: DFW
Originally Posted by mrr23
nate_ss and i hashed it out over AIM last night. we're cool about it now.
Yeah, me and mrr23 are cool. I think the whole damn thing was a confusion on both our parts. I was talking about race application and the crane's are set for street appl. take care robert
On The Tree
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From: DFW
My opinion is don't put race parts on a street car, and build yourself something that actually goes fast instead of wasting your money on a street car. You'll only keep breaking things in the long run with a street car. Oh and by the way i went to my local GM dealer and they said the factory prload is set at .040-.060.
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From: Central, MA
Originally Posted by NASTE_SS
My opinion is don't put race parts on a street car, and build yourself something that actually goes fast instead of wasting your money on a street car.
I can't afford / store two vehicles right now... so one that does it all - but none well, will have to do.