1.85 rockers
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Staging Lane
Joined: Jun 2005
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From: Knoxville Tennessee
1.85 rockers What would be the gain in HP/Torq with 1.85 rockers, springs and hardened push rods. I have read that there is a potential gain of 20rwhp!
I am also thinking about the Magic Stick cam. Is there an variety of lifts, duration on this cam or is there just one stick available? What would be the gains in installing the cam with the rockers?
I am also thinking about the Magic Stick cam. Is there an variety of lifts, duration on this cam or is there just one stick available? What would be the gains in installing the cam with the rockers?
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From: BFE
The Magic Stick is a very good cam and there are alot of other very good cams out there. OEM rockers are all you need in 99% of the applications, any one else that trys to convince you otherwise is a snake oil salesman. Need more lift and/or duration get a bigger cam, just that simple.
Originally Posted by PREDATOR-Z
SLP, no. vinci/crane 1.8 accelerated lift rockers and dual springs, yes. chevy high performance did it on a 5.3L truck. http://www.stealthram.com/reddogplan.htm
i did it on the wife's 99 formula with stock cam.
now, let the discussion continue. people that tell you to go out and tell you to buy a cam live in the past. just like clockwork, someone asks about going to higher ratio rockers, and mrbigdsz comes in before me and tells you it's a waste and we're all snake oil salesmen that give proof they work. then again, only real legitimate racers use stock rockers.
dyno 9 before
dyno 11 500 miles later
dyno 14 10 months later
i did it on the wife's 99 formula with stock cam.
now, let the discussion continue. people that tell you to go out and tell you to buy a cam live in the past. just like clockwork, someone asks about going to higher ratio rockers, and mrbigdsz comes in before me and tells you it's a waste and we're all snake oil salesmen that give proof they work. then again, only real legitimate racers use stock rockers.
dyno 9 before
dyno 11 500 miles later
dyno 14 10 months later
Last edited by mrr23; Jul 24, 2005 at 09:54 AM.
cam swaps, once you total everything involved to make it run right, isn't much cheaper than rockers.
higher ratio rocker swap (depending on who you buy)
vinci/ crane 1.8 rockers ( rockers, pushrods, studs, guideplates, locking nuts) $669.00
vinci/crane dual springs $349.00
total $1018.00
cam swap
cam $400.00
springs $300.00
pushrods $80.00
miscellaneous gaskets and fluids $100.00
tune $500.00
total $1380.00
will you get more power out of a cam, sure.
now, my totals are only cost of parts. most people can't do a cam swap. most people can handle a rocker swap. labor and downtime to swap a cam is a big minus for those that have to have a shop do it.
oh, and you won't be limited to your cam choices either if you get higher ratio rockers. that's another one of those scare tactics into making you buy a cam.
higher ratio rocker swap (depending on who you buy)
vinci/ crane 1.8 rockers ( rockers, pushrods, studs, guideplates, locking nuts) $669.00
vinci/crane dual springs $349.00
total $1018.00
cam swap
cam $400.00
springs $300.00
pushrods $80.00
miscellaneous gaskets and fluids $100.00
tune $500.00
total $1380.00
will you get more power out of a cam, sure.
now, my totals are only cost of parts. most people can't do a cam swap. most people can handle a rocker swap. labor and downtime to swap a cam is a big minus for those that have to have a shop do it.
oh, and you won't be limited to your cam choices either if you get higher ratio rockers. that's another one of those scare tactics into making you buy a cam.
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Originally Posted by mrr23
cam swaps, once you total everything involved to make it run right, isn't much cheaper than rockers.
higher ratio rocker swap (depending on who you buy)
vinci/ crane 1.8 rockers ( rockers, pushrods, studs, guideplates, locking nuts) $669.00
vinci/crane dual springs $349.00
total $1018.00
cam swap
cam $400.00
springs $300.00
pushrods $80.00
miscellaneous gaskets and fluids $100.00
tune $500.00
total $1380.00
will you get more power out of a cam, sure.
now, my totals are only cost of parts. most people can't do a cam swap. most people can handle a rocker swap. labor and downtime to swap a cam is a big minus for those that have to have a shop do it.
oh, and you won't be limited to your cam choices either if you get higher ratio rockers. that's another one of those scare tactics into making you buy a cam.
higher ratio rocker swap (depending on who you buy)
vinci/ crane 1.8 rockers ( rockers, pushrods, studs, guideplates, locking nuts) $669.00
vinci/crane dual springs $349.00
total $1018.00
cam swap
cam $400.00
springs $300.00
pushrods $80.00
miscellaneous gaskets and fluids $100.00
tune $500.00
total $1380.00
will you get more power out of a cam, sure.
now, my totals are only cost of parts. most people can't do a cam swap. most people can handle a rocker swap. labor and downtime to swap a cam is a big minus for those that have to have a shop do it.
oh, and you won't be limited to your cam choices either if you get higher ratio rockers. that's another one of those scare tactics into making you buy a cam.
i had mine done for 1200 out the door. cam kit, tuning and labor.
also youre statement about scare tactics is misleading.
you cant use a higher lift cam with 1.85 rockers.
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Verdad Gallardo TECH Fanatic
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Originally Posted by mrr23
SLP, no. vinci/crane 1.8 accelerated lift rockers and dual springs, yes. chevy high performance did it on a 5.3L truck. http://www.stealthram.com/reddogplan.htm
i did it on the wife's 99 formula with stock cam.
now, let the discussion continue. people that tell you to go out and tell you to buy a cam live in the past. just like clockwork, someone asks about going to higher ratio rockers, and mrbigdsz comes in before me and tells you it's a waste and we're all snake oil salesmen that give proof they work. then again, only real legitimate racers use stock rockers.
dyno 9 before
dyno 11 500 miles later
dyno 14 10 months later
i did it on the wife's 99 formula with stock cam.
now, let the discussion continue. people that tell you to go out and tell you to buy a cam live in the past. just like clockwork, someone asks about going to higher ratio rockers, and mrbigdsz comes in before me and tells you it's a waste and we're all snake oil salesmen that give proof they work. then again, only real legitimate racers use stock rockers.
dyno 9 before
dyno 11 500 miles later
dyno 14 10 months later
i wasted my money getting rockers. i got a 10 h.p gain.
i dumped the rockers for a cam and gained 40 h.p.
thats not living in the past.
This debate has raged on on other threads for quite some time. Of course, the cam swap can get big HP gains. A cam swap is probably the one thing you can do to an LS1 to get a big bump in HP. Some people, as in my own case, do not want to go to the trouble to do a cam install. My own choice was to get more lift by going to a higher ratio rocker. I chose the Vinci/Crane rockers because they ramp the valves open at faster rate than the other rockers. I don't try to argue that it is an economical way to gain HP. I doubt it is. However, if you use the Vinci/Crane rockers you don't have to worry about bearings spitting out of your rockers and ending up somewhere where you don't want them. If you are going to be under the rockers replacing springs as I was, the VHP rockers seemed like a good thing to me. My car clearly sounds better and my seat of the pants meter says it has more power. If you want to do a cam upgrade later on, you can do it. You can get a cam from Vinci or you can get a grind that takes into account your higher ratio rockers and get the additional HP form a cam swap. If money is a consideration, leave your car in its stock configuration because once you start the modifications you are going to need a pretty good size pile of money. It is looking more and more to me like the Vinci/Crane rockers are about like sex. Until you try them and feel them for yourself, you really don't know.
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Originally Posted by kenp
This debate has raged on on other threads for quite some time. Of course, the cam swap can get big HP gains. A cam swap is probably the one thing you can do to an LS1 to get a big bump in HP. Some people, as in my own case, do not want to go to the trouble to do a cam install. My own choice was to get more lift by going to a higher ratio rocker. I chose the Vinci/Crane rockers because they ramp the valves open at faster rate than the other rockers. I don't try to argue that it is an economical way to gain HP. I doubt it is. However, if you use the Vinci/Crane rockers you don't have to worry about bearings spitting out of your rockers and ending up somewhere where you don't want them. If you are going to be under the rockers replacing springs as I was, the VHP rockers seemed like a good thing to me. My car clearly sounds better and my seat of the pants meter says it has more power. If you want to do a cam upgrade later on, you can do it. You can get a cam from Vinci or you can get a grind that takes into account your higher ratio rockers and get the additional HP form a cam swap. If money is a consideration, leave your car in its stock configuration because once you start the modifications you are going to need a pretty good size pile of money. It is looking more and more to me like the Vinci/Crane rockers are about like sex. Until you try them and feel them for yourself, you really don't know.
did you before and after dyno?
Originally Posted by 4mula
fyi, a cam swap can be done for cheaper than what you posted.
i had mine done for 1200 out the door. cam kit, tuning and labor.
also youre statement about scare tactics is misleading.
you cant use a higher lift cam with 1.85 rockers.
i had mine done for 1200 out the door. cam kit, tuning and labor.
also youre statement about scare tactics is misleading.
you cant use a higher lift cam with 1.85 rockers.
and why can't you use a higher lift cam with 1.85 rockers??? never seen a valid reason yet. other than because someone said so.
here's the only reasons i can think of:
springs ( buy springs that can)
piston to valve clearance ( you can fix that as well)
ramp rates ( why????) no one has ever explained that one
come on now.
Originally Posted by 4mula
weather could of affected above results.
i wasted my money getting rockers. i got a 10 h.p gain.
i dumped the rockers for a cam and gained 40 h.p.
thats not living in the past.
i wasted my money getting rockers. i got a 10 h.p gain.
i dumped the rockers for a cam and gained 40 h.p.
thats not living in the past.
would you like track results instead?
13.158 @ 106.86 before
13.054 @ 107.32 after
you consider a gain of 10 hp a waste, then it must be. now, if you would've kept the rockers with the cam, i wonder what you would've gained in total?
Originally Posted by 4mula
to each their own. i learned my lesson the hard way, to crack 400 at the rear youll need a cam.
people do what they can afford. nothing wrong with that. there's nothing wrong with doing it the cam way. just like there's nothing wrong with adding rockers. and you CAN do both at the same time.
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Originally Posted by mrr23
those were just prices off the top of my head for all new stuff. you can also get rockers and springs for cheaper than what i quoted as well.
and why can't you use a higher lift cam with 1.85 rockers??? never seen a valid reason yet. other than because someone said so.
here's the only reasons i can think of:
springs ( buy springs that can)
piston to valve clearance ( you can fix that as well)
ramp rates ( why????) no one has ever explained that one
come on now.
and why can't you use a higher lift cam with 1.85 rockers??? never seen a valid reason yet. other than because someone said so.
here's the only reasons i can think of:
springs ( buy springs that can)
piston to valve clearance ( you can fix that as well)
ramp rates ( why????) no one has ever explained that one
come on now.
when i first got the rockers, i was happy. i never thought i was gonna go internal. the problem was that i wanted more power and the cam was the next step to go, no way around it.
unless you get a cam with small lift, you dont have much to worry about.
if you get a cam with decent lift, you have to worry about piston to valve clearance. correcting that so the rockers can work with a cam is getting expensive. its cheaper to just get a bigger cam that would make the same power as a smaller cam and 1.85 rockers.
the point im getting at is, if a guy ever thinks hes gonna do a cam, stay away from the rockers and save his/her hard earned money.
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Originally Posted by mrr23
would you like track results instead?
13.158 @ 106.86 before
13.054 @ 107.32 after
you consider a gain of 10 hp a waste, then it must be. now, if you would've kept the rockers with the cam, i wonder what you would've gained in total?
13.158 @ 106.86 before
13.054 @ 107.32 after
you consider a gain of 10 hp a waste, then it must be. now, if you would've kept the rockers with the cam, i wonder what you would've gained in total?
10 rwhp is kinda a waste when you gotta pay $1000 for it in MY book.
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Originally Posted by mrr23
no arguement there at this point. the wife's car is at 365 rwhp with stock cam. there are still a few boltons i can put on. really tempting to try for the 400 rwhp mark before putting a cam in. i'm debating trying. i have the auto against me vs if i had a manual.
people do what they can afford. nothing wrong with that. there's nothing wrong with doing it the cam way. just like there's nothing wrong with adding rockers. and you CAN do both at the same time.
people do what they can afford. nothing wrong with that. there's nothing wrong with doing it the cam way. just like there's nothing wrong with adding rockers. and you CAN do both at the same time.
you are correct that guys do what they can afford.
guess my point was you can do a cam for not much more and get much bigger gains.
i much rather have a cam to where i dont have to fly cut the pistons so the rockers could stay on. my case the lift would of been well over 600 if i kept the rockers.
i agree, $1000 is alot of money to spend. but, if you are wanting the most power possible, you go all out.
or you could've bought a cam to compliment the rockers. case in point. vinci did this exact test.
comp cams 220/224 .581/.581 115 LSA with vinci/crane 1.7 accelerated lift rockers vs vinci 055 cam 216/224 .551/.551 (1.7) 113 LSA with vinci/crane 1.8 accelerated lift rockers (brings lift to .589/.589) it made more overall power throughout the entire rpm range. and with smaller duration on the intake side to boot.
or you could've bought a cam to compliment the rockers. case in point. vinci did this exact test.
comp cams 220/224 .581/.581 115 LSA with vinci/crane 1.7 accelerated lift rockers vs vinci 055 cam 216/224 .551/.551 (1.7) 113 LSA with vinci/crane 1.8 accelerated lift rockers (brings lift to .589/.589) it made more overall power throughout the entire rpm range. and with smaller duration on the intake side to boot.
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Originally Posted by mrr23
i agree, $1000 is alot of money to spend. but, if you are wanting the most power possible, you go all out.
or you could've bought a cam to compliment the rockers. case in point. vinci did this exact test.
comp cams 220/224 .581/.581 115 LSA with vinci/crane 1.7 accelerated lift rockers vs vinci 055 cam 216/224 .551/.551 (1.7) 113 LSA with vinci/crane 1.8 accelerated lift rockers (brings lift to .589/.589) it made more overall power throughout the entire rpm range. and with smaller duration on the intake side to boot.
or you could've bought a cam to compliment the rockers. case in point. vinci did this exact test.
comp cams 220/224 .581/.581 115 LSA with vinci/crane 1.7 accelerated lift rockers vs vinci 055 cam 216/224 .551/.551 (1.7) 113 LSA with vinci/crane 1.8 accelerated lift rockers (brings lift to .589/.589) it made more overall power throughout the entire rpm range. and with smaller duration on the intake side to boot.
you are correct with above. there are alot of ways to get that power.
PERSONALLY, i would just rather get a bigger cam( which i did). it comes out cheaper.
im not argueing with you. im just throwing out a different option.