Broke head bolt in block....HELP
08-24-2005, 02:35 PM
#61
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Consider bringing it to another shop. Preferrably, one that does not have a vested interest in doing the labor involved with your short block swap.
How much are used short blocks these days?
I doubt whether you could get the block to seal without the center head bolt. Maybe others here would dissagree, however. You would have a better shot if the head was iron and not alumunium but that is a different story.
Don't make snap decision. Take your time and consider all alternatives at this point. Call around for other "specialty" shops that might help. A welding shop would be a good first try.
Do a search here and find the post that describes the issue with the broken crank bolt.... After a bunch of tries at home with easy-outs, drills etc, this guy took it to
a "specialty" shop and they got it out. I don;t remeber if it was a welder, machine shop or other. It was NOT an engine shop, however.
How much are used short blocks these days?
I doubt whether you could get the block to seal without the center head bolt. Maybe others here would dissagree, however. You would have a better shot if the head was iron and not alumunium but that is a different story.
Don't make snap decision. Take your time and consider all alternatives at this point. Call around for other "specialty" shops that might help. A welding shop would be a good first try.
Do a search here and find the post that describes the issue with the broken crank bolt.... After a bunch of tries at home with easy-outs, drills etc, this guy took it to
a "specialty" shop and they got it out. I don;t remeber if it was a welder, machine shop or other. It was NOT an engine shop, however.
08-24-2005, 02:57 PM
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SEE THE POST HERE FROM 12.06.03
It is titled, "Broken Crank Bolt in Crankshaft"
Anyway he got it out.
This is a reply that is included in that thread:
***************
There are two ways to remove a broken bolt.
One is EDM - That is an Electro Arc machine. Its basically a controlled carbon arc gouge. Some machine shops have them. Basically they have a carbon tip that the place on the metal and then they in a very controlled fashin remove the broken bolt. I know folks who have removed broken ARP studs and stuff like that out of blocks. This can be done without hurting the threads. But, if the bolt broke, the chances are the threads are boogered up anyway. Cost can be around $100 per inch.
Another option is someone who is familiar with hardened bolts. My buddy is, he uses a small drill bit a sharp punch. He basically chips the bolt out of the hole by splitting it into 4 pieces. He can do so without destryoing threads, and often removed bolts from alumnum heads this way.
It may be easier and cheaper to go buy a new stock crank and a set of bearings.
Non of the other options that mentioned tapping the other part of the crank, etc... are even remotely advisable. No easy out will touch a bolt like that. Most drill bits wont even put a dent in hardedned steel. Cobalt might, but depending on what it is there is a good chance it won't. EDM may be you only choice.
It is titled, "Broken Crank Bolt in Crankshaft"
Anyway he got it out.
This is a reply that is included in that thread:
***************
There are two ways to remove a broken bolt.
One is EDM - That is an Electro Arc machine. Its basically a controlled carbon arc gouge. Some machine shops have them. Basically they have a carbon tip that the place on the metal and then they in a very controlled fashin remove the broken bolt. I know folks who have removed broken ARP studs and stuff like that out of blocks. This can be done without hurting the threads. But, if the bolt broke, the chances are the threads are boogered up anyway. Cost can be around $100 per inch.
Another option is someone who is familiar with hardened bolts. My buddy is, he uses a small drill bit a sharp punch. He basically chips the bolt out of the hole by splitting it into 4 pieces. He can do so without destryoing threads, and often removed bolts from alumnum heads this way.
It may be easier and cheaper to go buy a new stock crank and a set of bearings.
Non of the other options that mentioned tapping the other part of the crank, etc... are even remotely advisable. No easy out will touch a bolt like that. Most drill bits wont even put a dent in hardedned steel. Cobalt might, but depending on what it is there is a good chance it won't. EDM may be you only choice.
08-24-2005, 03:25 PM
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With a used short block you do not know what you are getting. Is this the engine that has factory piston slap, bad rings, bad bearings, etc; is it an engine from a GM dealer who replaced it under warranty and sold it out the back door. ??????
You know the condition of your current block. That is why it makes sence to try one more time to remove the broken bolt....
This is a serious issue that has many altenatives and varying costs that all should be considered carefully. Take your time and think about all options. As I see it, these are the options:
1. Find a specialty shop with an electro arc machine that removes busted bolts
2. Call a few welding shops and see if they have done bolt extraction with aluminum blocked engines. See if they make house calls - some shops have trucks that carry welders
3. Talk with others here to see if they think the block would seal without a center bolt
4. See if it is possible to tap and thread the upper half of the bolt hole so you might use a shorter threaded bolt or stud instead of the longer factory bolt
5. Buy a used short block and pay someone to swap it
6. Buy a new engine block and transfer your innards (not recommended without costly machining) and pay someone to swap it
7. Park it while you earn enough to buy a 402 forged short block for $4K from SDPC
You know the condition of your current block. That is why it makes sence to try one more time to remove the broken bolt....
This is a serious issue that has many altenatives and varying costs that all should be considered carefully. Take your time and think about all options. As I see it, these are the options:
1. Find a specialty shop with an electro arc machine that removes busted bolts
2. Call a few welding shops and see if they have done bolt extraction with aluminum blocked engines. See if they make house calls - some shops have trucks that carry welders
3. Talk with others here to see if they think the block would seal without a center bolt
4. See if it is possible to tap and thread the upper half of the bolt hole so you might use a shorter threaded bolt or stud instead of the longer factory bolt
5. Buy a used short block and pay someone to swap it
6. Buy a new engine block and transfer your innards (not recommended without costly machining) and pay someone to swap it
7. Park it while you earn enough to buy a 402 forged short block for $4K from SDPC
08-24-2005, 04:24 PM
#65
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Originally Posted by HASTINGSRJ
Well as it turns out...JBA couldnt get it out either.....so my block is going to be an end table. Looking for a short block now
sorry to hear that guy...good luck with the rest of your build.
08-24-2005, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by robertbartsch
With a used short block you do not know what you are getting. Is this the engine that has factory piston slap, bad rings, bad bearings, etc; is it an engine from a GM dealer who replaced it under warranty and sold it out the back door. ??????
You know the condition of your current block. That is why it makes sence to try one more time to remove the broken bolt....
This is a serious issue that has many altenatives and varying costs that all should be considered carefully. Take your time and think about all options. As I see it, these are the options:
1. Find a specialty shop with an electro arc machine that removes busted bolts
2. Call a few welding shops and see if they have done bolt extraction with aluminum blocked engines. See if they make house calls - some shops have trucks that carry welders
3. Talk with others here to see if they think the block would seal without a center bolt
4. See if it is possible to tap and thread the upper half of the bolt hole so you might use a shorter threaded bolt or stud instead of the longer factory bolt
5. Buy a used short block and pay someone to swap it
6. Buy a new engine block and transfer your innards (not recommended without costly machining) and pay someone to swap it
7. Park it while you earn enough to buy a 402 forged short block for $4K from SDPC
You know the condition of your current block. That is why it makes sence to try one more time to remove the broken bolt....
This is a serious issue that has many altenatives and varying costs that all should be considered carefully. Take your time and think about all options. As I see it, these are the options:
1. Find a specialty shop with an electro arc machine that removes busted bolts
2. Call a few welding shops and see if they have done bolt extraction with aluminum blocked engines. See if they make house calls - some shops have trucks that carry welders
3. Talk with others here to see if they think the block would seal without a center bolt
4. See if it is possible to tap and thread the upper half of the bolt hole so you might use a shorter threaded bolt or stud instead of the longer factory bolt
5. Buy a used short block and pay someone to swap it
6. Buy a new engine block and transfer your innards (not recommended without costly machining) and pay someone to swap it
7. Park it while you earn enough to buy a 402 forged short block for $4K from SDPC
I'll take #7 for $4000 Alex
08-26-2005, 10:29 AM
#67
Well I bought a new short block....out of an 02 vette, with under 5k on it....for $750.00
So after all that trouble, frustration and bs, I guess it was all for nothing, I should have been looking for a new block the whole time. Well the good news is since I have to pull my block, might as well put my spec 3 in at the same time
Thank you everyone for your input on this subject. I really appreciated everyones help.
Rob
So after all that trouble, frustration and bs, I guess it was all for nothing, I should have been looking for a new block the whole time. Well the good news is since I have to pull my block, might as well put my spec 3 in at the same time Thank you everyone for your input on this subject. I really appreciated everyones help.
Rob
08-27-2005, 01:48 PM
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I'm glad you came up with a solution. I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but did anyone try to "build" it out with a stick welder? I seriously have done it many, many, many times on all sorts of engines and equipment. Only once did I ever fuse a bolt into a block (it was a ford anyway) j/k
See, as you build the bolt out, the slag from the stick will accumlate out from the center of the weld and (normally) keep you from welding into surrounding material. Ah, well, glad you got a new block.
See, as you build the bolt out, the slag from the stick will accumlate out from the center of the weld and (normally) keep you from welding into surrounding material. Ah, well, glad you got a new block.
08-30-2005, 11:32 AM
#70
Well it was #1 in the tourqe sequence.....
And your never gonna believe this....while putting the new motor together, yup, I ******* did it again. Broke the #1 head bolt right in the new block. So I went back down to JBA yesterday, and they tapped it, and put a helicoil(sp) in there and gave me a new head bolt with the right thread pitch. SOOOOO....my head studs are on the way now. Will let you all know how this turns out, keep your fingers crossed for me.......
Rob
Oh as it turns out, the tourqe wrench I was using (which was brand new) was fucked up.....therefore causing me to snap another head bolt in the block....
Lesson learned....USE HEAD STUDS!!!!!!!!!!! Never stock bolts.....and yes, the bolts were brand new as well......
And your never gonna believe this....while putting the new motor together, yup, I ******* did it again. Broke the #1 head bolt right in the new block. So I went back down to JBA yesterday, and they tapped it, and put a helicoil(sp) in there and gave me a new head bolt with the right thread pitch. SOOOOO....my head studs are on the way now. Will let you all know how this turns out, keep your fingers crossed for me.......
Rob
Oh as it turns out, the tourqe wrench I was using (which was brand new) was fucked up.....therefore causing me to snap another head bolt in the block....
Lesson learned....USE HEAD STUDS!!!!!!!!!!! Never stock bolts.....and yes, the bolts were brand new as well......
08-30-2005, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by HASTINGSRJ
while putting the new motor together, yup, I ******* did it again. Broke the #1 head bolt right in the new block.
One day it will all seem funny.
08-30-2005, 12:37 PM
#72
Originally Posted by Z06-Dave
I don't know you, but I would have given an incredible amount of money to see your face when the second bolt broke free...
One day it will all seem funny.
One day it will all seem funny.
08-30-2005, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by HASTINGSRJ
Oh, believe me, you didnt want to be here...I almost threw the tourqe wrench.......it wouldnt have been pretty....luckliy a friend of mine grabbed it out of my hands......then I went and got many beers
Good luck with the rest of the build, it will all be worth it in the end....
08-30-2005, 01:22 PM
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Go get a Sears tork wrench with a bending wand and scale for $25. It can't be calibrated, and is not very accurate, but I think it would be almost impossible to break off another bolt!
Are these GM factory bolts that you were breaking? It thought this would be very rare that they break. I thought you would really have to twist the hell out of one to break it.... ...like 110 lbs when the factory rating is approximately 75lbs????
Oh well, good luck with the new motor....
Are these GM factory bolts that you were breaking? It thought this would be very rare that they break. I thought you would really have to twist the hell out of one to break it.... ...like 110 lbs when the factory rating is approximately 75lbs????
Oh well, good luck with the new motor....
08-30-2005, 01:28 PM
#75
Originally Posted by robertbartsch
Go get a Sears tork wrench with a bending wand and scale for $25. It can't be calibrated, and is not very accurate, but I think it would be almost impossible to break off another bolt!
Are these GM factory bolts that you were breaking? It thought this would be very rare that they break. I thought you would really have to twist the hell out of one to break it.... ...like 110 lbs when the factory rating is approximately 75lbs????
Oh well, good luck with the new motor....
Are these GM factory bolts that you were breaking? It thought this would be very rare that they break. I thought you would really have to twist the hell out of one to break it.... ...like 110 lbs when the factory rating is approximately 75lbs????
Oh well, good luck with the new motor....
08-30-2005, 03:30 PM
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Can you confirm that factory specs are 70lbs for Gen 3 head bolts?
I put silicone on my head bolts and then realized I could not mark them with a felt tip pen and use the GM method of torking.... So I just went 40lbs, 50lbs, 60lbs, 70lbs, and finally 75lbs..... My heads have been on with no issues for 3 years...
I have never been able to confirm the final GM tork spec, however? Where did you get this info?
I put silicone on my head bolts and then realized I could not mark them with a felt tip pen and use the GM method of torking.... So I just went 40lbs, 50lbs, 60lbs, 70lbs, and finally 75lbs..... My heads have been on with no issues for 3 years...
I have never been able to confirm the final GM tork spec, however? Where did you get this info?
09-12-2005, 12:35 PM
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....possibly the valves are open... as a result of push rods that are too long, or some other machanical issue... what did you change from the stock set up (heads, push rods, rockers, valves, springs, lifters, spring keepers, cam???)
...did you rotate the engine after you installed the heads but before you put the push rods and rockers on? Thisis a good way to tell if you have compression since the valves should be 100% closed...
When you say no compression, what exactly do you mean?
I have a strong feeling that you should stay away from a vocation like auto mechanics. ....Perhaps a safer indevor would suit you better .....like become a CPA, lawyer, stockbroker, banker or take up some other pencil-pushing job.... you might also want to sell all your tools so you are not tempted to twist any more wrenches...
...did you rotate the engine after you installed the heads but before you put the push rods and rockers on? Thisis a good way to tell if you have compression since the valves should be 100% closed...
When you say no compression, what exactly do you mean?
I have a strong feeling that you should stay away from a vocation like auto mechanics. ....Perhaps a safer indevor would suit you better .....like become a CPA, lawyer, stockbroker, banker or take up some other pencil-pushing job.... you might also want to sell all your tools so you are not tempted to twist any more wrenches...
09-12-2005, 12:53 PM
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Rotating the cam 180 degrees is VERY dangerous....
...if you cranked the car over with the cam installed incorrectly, you now have bent valves, holes in your pistons, or both!
...I assume that if you rotated the cam 180 degrees that you have cranked the car over twice (i) once with the cam installed correctly and (ii) once with the cam installed 180 degrees out of phase....
There is a web page that gives novices a step-by-step method to change heads and cam in an LS1 engine (GM Gen III) .... it even has pictures to show you the more difficult steps. ...are you following this?
There are single dots on the (1) cam shaft sprocket and (2) the crank shaft sprocket. These two dots are aligned vertically when the cam is installed correctly....
...if you cranked the car over with the cam installed incorrectly, you now have bent valves, holes in your pistons, or both!
...I assume that if you rotated the cam 180 degrees that you have cranked the car over twice (i) once with the cam installed correctly and (ii) once with the cam installed 180 degrees out of phase....
There is a web page that gives novices a step-by-step method to change heads and cam in an LS1 engine (GM Gen III) .... it even has pictures to show you the more difficult steps. ...are you following this?
There are single dots on the (1) cam shaft sprocket and (2) the crank shaft sprocket. These two dots are aligned vertically when the cam is installed correctly....
