How strong is the stock crank?
09-05-2005, 11:33 PM
#61
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didn't actually run over any cranks...infact it was still running pretty good when it was broke. i drove it a few weeks with the 2 damaged pistons. it went 11.40s na with stock internals. car has a th400 with a chance converter in it now which is basically the only change in the drivetrain. light car, best suspension man in the business and in my opinion the best motor man in the business. it should do fine...why don't YOU educate me and all the rest that don't know how piston speeds relate to head porting? i'm sure it is some very compelling stuff. i don't have to know all the exact details of how it works to know that if i build something this way it will work perfectly. would it be better if i did know that particular fact...possibly, but i don't have to know it to know what works and what works best for me and has been proven to work best for others in the past.
09-05-2005, 11:35 PM
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Originally Posted by SStrokerAce
oh ok ;-) Maybe if you didn't hide behind your screen name we would know who you are superstar.
I already have customers who work with Hans thanks....
You still don't understand how head ports relate to piston speed so my post still stands on calling you out.
How fast did the last one run before you ran over your crank?
Bret
I already have customers who work with Hans thanks....
You still don't understand how head ports relate to piston speed so my post still stands on calling you out.
How fast did the last one run before you ran over your crank?
Bret
I know you have a vast array of knowledge, and respect and love reading your posts, as the are quite informative to me, but for the most part, there aren't alot of wicked wild *** heads running around. Would you consider the ET Performance heads a good head. With what you are talking about, I'm sure the "basic" stg 1,2,3, etc cnc'd jobs are no where near what you are talking about...
09-05-2005, 11:37 PM
#63
11.40's on a stock bottom end? **** learn how to setup a real car and you can do that with a STOCK MOTOR WITH ONLY BOLT ONS!
I'm not here to be your teacher, your too much of a, nevermind.... you can go talk with Hans and see if he will tell you since you guys are buddy, buddy....
Don't worry about it, I don't know too many 22 year olds that actually understand how piston speed relates to head porting, so you will just be one of many.
Later
Bret
I'm not here to be your teacher, your too much of a, nevermind.... you can go talk with Hans and see if he will tell you since you guys are buddy, buddy....
Don't worry about it, I don't know too many 22 year olds that actually understand how piston speed relates to head porting, so you will just be one of many.
Later
Bret
09-05-2005, 11:39 PM
#64
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with the LSX heads it has been proven that they can be ported to provide some crazy power with just a stock casting. look at the SAM car for example...9.1xs with a stock casting LS6 ported head. Yelvi has a set of LS6 heads that flow'd like 360/280 that he did like 2 or 3 years ago...talk to Erik about heads if you want good knowledgable info and want to make the best power for your setup.
09-05-2005, 11:41 PM
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learn to read strokerass...it WAS with stock internals and bolt ons only. i love older guys like you that think "young" guys can't put together a setup to haul *** just because they don't know what you know. it's cute really it is....
09-05-2005, 11:42 PM
#66
Originally Posted by Brandon
Bret, with all due respect, post up some ofthe guys on here in the single digits with proper heads, and whatnot relating to piston speed.
I know you have a vast array of knowledge, and respect and love reading your posts, as the are quite informative to me, but for the most part, there aren't alot of wicked wild *** heads running around. Would you consider the ET Performance heads a good head. With what you are talking about, I'm sure the "basic" stg 1,2,3, etc cnc'd jobs are no where near what you are talking about...
I know you have a vast array of knowledge, and respect and love reading your posts, as the are quite informative to me, but for the most part, there aren't alot of wicked wild *** heads running around. Would you consider the ET Performance heads a good head. With what you are talking about, I'm sure the "basic" stg 1,2,3, etc cnc'd jobs are no where near what you are talking about...
CFE probably has a good CNC port for these things, the guys at TEA might too, I haven't seen any of their LS stuff on the bench here, but their other stuff I have seen I like.
IMHO the internet guys can't afford real LS heads, those go to the SS drag race guys who will spend the $$$ needed to get them. Meaux's stuff that he does for Alan I'm pretty sure has everything taken care of IMHO, but you could also talk to any of the guys who have experience with these heads and in stock casting NHRA drag racing classes and they could get you where you want to be... some better than others.
Bret
09-06-2005, 12:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Brandon
I have heard good tings about Meaux/FMS heads, any info on CFE? Im guessing I'm missing the abreviation...
They've done induction systems for championship winning teams in NASCAR, Pro-Stock, Comp Eliminator, and everything else in between.
09-06-2005, 01:13 AM
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Here's my take on building a serious 347 nitrous engine.
The problem here is that a 347" nitrous engine will only injest so much nitrous. I mean let's face it, as great as the LSX cylinder heads are, they don't compare to a Little Chief or Blue Thunder cylinder head.
Let's say we decide that we need to make 1,000HP (Flywheel) to run however fast we want to go with whatever rules we've decided to play by. Now let's assume that we we will be spraying 300 (Yes I know you can spray more, and if it were my engine, I would, but just play along). This means that our 347 needs to make 700HP without nitrous to reach our goal of 1,000HP.
So what does it take to make 700HP from a 347? A good induction system. You need a killer set of heads and a good sheet-metal manifold. The problem with this is that to get enough flow from the heads, you need valves that might or might not fit on a 3.905" bore. So I can see where somebody would use a 4.8L crank and a 6.0L block to make 347 inches. But now that you have a smaller stroke, which means more RPM. That engine could easily see 9,000 RPM with a real set of cylinder heads on it. 9,000 RPM means you had better have your valvetrain figured out, or you're going to end up shooting yourself.
Then you run into the tuning issue. Believe it or not, most people don't get what they pay for when they switch to a BS3 or FAST setup. And it's because most tuning 'gurus', well, aren't. Then there's the advantage of a good 'ol MSD 7530 box. That box has many features that often get overlooked by rookies that real racers use to make their cars faster for any given HP.
And I read in here that bigbore/short stroke = tq? WRONG. CUBIC INCHES = TORQUE. The reason Big Bore/Short Stroke is used in a class where you're limited to cubic inches, is because if you can make your peak TQ number higher, you will make more HP, making your car faster. Remember, HP = (TQ * RPM) / 5252. So let's say our 347 makes 468 FT. LBS, and we make it at 6,000 RPM, we'll have about 454 peak HP. But if we make that same 468 FT. LBS at 9,000 RPM, we'll have about 684 HP. This is why some people say RPM is the key. And in some ways it's true, but don't ever give up CID to turn more RPM. That is just plain silly.
This leads us into Port Volume and Piston Speed. At 9,000 RPM, an engine with a 3.622" stroke will have a piston speed of 5433 FT/MIN. That's quite a bit. Port Volume needs to be matched to the piston speed that the engine will see in order to have the power-band you're looking for. It's why Tony Mamo doesn't recommend the 225CC AFR head for a stock bottom-end car. The bigger head requires a bigger piston speed to really be effective. So keep in mind it's not all about flow, but port volume as well.
One last thing before I go. Nitrous engines use small camshafts, so turning big RPM with any nitrous engine can be difficult. Which is again why the induction system is king, even in a nitrous engine. This is the reason most 347's are stuck in the mid-9's. They don't make enough HP without the nitrous. Of course most of those people have no idea what it takes to make HP anyways, so they argue endlessly and make themselves sound like fools. Oh well.
Just my .02
The problem here is that a 347" nitrous engine will only injest so much nitrous. I mean let's face it, as great as the LSX cylinder heads are, they don't compare to a Little Chief or Blue Thunder cylinder head.
Let's say we decide that we need to make 1,000HP (Flywheel) to run however fast we want to go with whatever rules we've decided to play by. Now let's assume that we we will be spraying 300 (Yes I know you can spray more, and if it were my engine, I would, but just play along). This means that our 347 needs to make 700HP without nitrous to reach our goal of 1,000HP.
So what does it take to make 700HP from a 347? A good induction system. You need a killer set of heads and a good sheet-metal manifold. The problem with this is that to get enough flow from the heads, you need valves that might or might not fit on a 3.905" bore. So I can see where somebody would use a 4.8L crank and a 6.0L block to make 347 inches. But now that you have a smaller stroke, which means more RPM. That engine could easily see 9,000 RPM with a real set of cylinder heads on it. 9,000 RPM means you had better have your valvetrain figured out, or you're going to end up shooting yourself.
Then you run into the tuning issue. Believe it or not, most people don't get what they pay for when they switch to a BS3 or FAST setup. And it's because most tuning 'gurus', well, aren't. Then there's the advantage of a good 'ol MSD 7530 box. That box has many features that often get overlooked by rookies that real racers use to make their cars faster for any given HP.
And I read in here that bigbore/short stroke = tq? WRONG. CUBIC INCHES = TORQUE. The reason Big Bore/Short Stroke is used in a class where you're limited to cubic inches, is because if you can make your peak TQ number higher, you will make more HP, making your car faster. Remember, HP = (TQ * RPM) / 5252. So let's say our 347 makes 468 FT. LBS, and we make it at 6,000 RPM, we'll have about 454 peak HP. But if we make that same 468 FT. LBS at 9,000 RPM, we'll have about 684 HP. This is why some people say RPM is the key. And in some ways it's true, but don't ever give up CID to turn more RPM. That is just plain silly.
This leads us into Port Volume and Piston Speed. At 9,000 RPM, an engine with a 3.622" stroke will have a piston speed of 5433 FT/MIN. That's quite a bit. Port Volume needs to be matched to the piston speed that the engine will see in order to have the power-band you're looking for. It's why Tony Mamo doesn't recommend the 225CC AFR head for a stock bottom-end car. The bigger head requires a bigger piston speed to really be effective. So keep in mind it's not all about flow, but port volume as well.
One last thing before I go. Nitrous engines use small camshafts, so turning big RPM with any nitrous engine can be difficult. Which is again why the induction system is king, even in a nitrous engine. This is the reason most 347's are stuck in the mid-9's. They don't make enough HP without the nitrous. Of course most of those people have no idea what it takes to make HP anyways, so they argue endlessly and make themselves sound like fools. Oh well.
Just my .02
