Problems with ARP head bolts and AFR205s
Problems with ARP head bolts and AFR205s Well I dont believe the problem has anything to do with the AFR205 heads but just wanted to mention it.
Heres the problem we're seeing. I first installed the heads myself about 6weeks ago and everything went fine. I spent over 4hrs cleaning the bolt holes and all that mess and installed the new heads with .040 cometic gaskets and used ARP moly lube with the ARP head bolts.
Now I noticed a very small leak from the head gasket area of oil and coolant.
So yesteday I had a vette technician (who works at a GM dealer) remove the heads for me and go back and instead install the stock GM gasket. Well everything was going fine until he called me and said that he found the problem.
He said the ARP head bolts are bottoming out with the heads and GM gasket on there on the bottom holes. He pulled the head again and then put the ARP bolts in the block itself and noticed it was bottoming out and also compared it to the stock TTY bolt I gave him (that I shaved the sides to chase the holes with) and he said the ARP bolts were definetely a tad longer.
Anyone seen this? I thought lets Grind down the ARP bolts, but dont know for sure if thats a good idea cause we may damage the integrity of the 180,000psi tensile strength of the bolts. My GM tech does not want to grind them until ARP confirms it will be fine.
I do not want to install the TTY bolts on the head and neither does he. So Im stuck on either grinding those bolts or having to buy possibly head studs and ditching the ARP bolts.
Dixit
Heres the problem we're seeing. I first installed the heads myself about 6weeks ago and everything went fine. I spent over 4hrs cleaning the bolt holes and all that mess and installed the new heads with .040 cometic gaskets and used ARP moly lube with the ARP head bolts.
Now I noticed a very small leak from the head gasket area of oil and coolant.
So yesteday I had a vette technician (who works at a GM dealer) remove the heads for me and go back and instead install the stock GM gasket. Well everything was going fine until he called me and said that he found the problem.
He said the ARP head bolts are bottoming out with the heads and GM gasket on there on the bottom holes. He pulled the head again and then put the ARP bolts in the block itself and noticed it was bottoming out and also compared it to the stock TTY bolt I gave him (that I shaved the sides to chase the holes with) and he said the ARP bolts were definetely a tad longer.
Anyone seen this? I thought lets Grind down the ARP bolts, but dont know for sure if thats a good idea cause we may damage the integrity of the 180,000psi tensile strength of the bolts. My GM tech does not want to grind them until ARP confirms it will be fine.
I do not want to install the TTY bolts on the head and neither does he. So Im stuck on either grinding those bolts or having to buy possibly head studs and ditching the ARP bolts.
Dixit
Sounds like you got the wrong ARP head bolts. The later blocks used all the same length bolts while the earlier blocks had longer bolts on the outside or something like that, I can't remember for sure. Maybe use the opportunity to switch to the correct ARP studs.
I definetely got the right ones because when I pulled the LS6 heads off I got 2 smaller bolts on the outside bolts of the under the valve cover. The ARP bolts were the same way, I got 4 smaller bolts (two for each side) and the smaller ones for the top row. Definetely got the correct kit because verified the part# with with ARP lists for LS1/LS6 engines. 2004 went with the new bolt set where all bolts were same size. If I got that kit then it would be fairly obvious the bolt was too long because the two outside bolts which are shorter are short by a good 2". Im talking about the TTY bolts are maybe 1/8" or so shorter than the ARP ones. These are the long bolts im talking about.
Dixit
Dixit
I checked my ARPs with the stock TTY bolts I removed from my engine and I found no noticable difference in length....if there was 1/8" difference I would have seen that.
I have TEA heads with GM Graphite gaskets (.054") and have not had any leaks. It's been about 5 weeks now since I installed them.
I would think if the bolts were bottoming out you'd have had leaks long ago or did damage to the block. We've all heard of the ones that have left coolant in the bolt holes and cracked the block...
I have TEA heads with GM Graphite gaskets (.054") and have not had any leaks. It's been about 5 weeks now since I installed them.
I would think if the bolts were bottoming out you'd have had leaks long ago or did damage to the block. We've all heard of the ones that have left coolant in the bolt holes and cracked the block...
head bolts Don't grind the bolts. If you need to shorten them, use a lathe with coolant to keep the bolts cool while you cut.
I assume you have washers on the bolts and they still bottom out. If not, get yourself hardened washers from ARP.
The problem you are seeing is in the block not in the bolts. I find that some blocks are not threaded down far enough. I have a thread forming tool to take care of this problem but you would have trouble purchasing one.
Steve
I assume you have washers on the bolts and they still bottom out. If not, get yourself hardened washers from ARP.
The problem you are seeing is in the block not in the bolts. I find that some blocks are not threaded down far enough. I have a thread forming tool to take care of this problem but you would have trouble purchasing one.
Steve
Originally Posted by Dixit
I definetely got the right ones because when I pulled the LS6 heads off I got 2 smaller bolts on the outside bolts of the under the valve cover. The ARP bolts were the same way, I got 4 smaller bolts (two for each side) and the smaller ones for the top row. Definetely got the correct kit because verified the part# with with ARP lists for LS1/LS6 engines. 2004 went with the new bolt set where all bolts were same size. If I got that kit then it would be fairly obvious the bolt was too long because the two outside bolts which are shorter are short by a good 2". Im talking about the TTY bolts are maybe 1/8" or so shorter than the ARP ones. These are the long bolts im talking about.
Dixit
Dixit
__________________
Steve Demirjian
Race Engine Development
Oceanside, Ca.
760-630-0450
web: www.raceenginedevelopment.com/
e-mail: race-engine-development@***.net
Steve Demirjian
Race Engine Development
Oceanside, Ca.
760-630-0450
web: www.raceenginedevelopment.com/
e-mail: race-engine-development@***.net
Yea I had a feeling grinding them was going to be a bad idea cause thats definetly going to heat the metal and defeat the purpose of 180,000psi tensile strength. To cut them on a lathe would cost me too much, would be cheaper just to buy a set of head studs that will take care of the problem.
Just odd how GM obviously has some blocks with bolts that are not threaded all the way down. What a flipping pain to find this out later.
And yes definetely used the ARP hardened washers that came with the set. Now I could just add another set of washers but it may just be better int he end to just get the ARP stud kit and call it a night as opposed to trying to jerry rig it to get it to work.
Dixit
Just odd how GM obviously has some blocks with bolts that are not threaded all the way down. What a flipping pain to find this out later.
And yes definetely used the ARP hardened washers that came with the set. Now I could just add another set of washers but it may just be better int he end to just get the ARP stud kit and call it a night as opposed to trying to jerry rig it to get it to work.
Dixit
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Joined: Aug 2003
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From: Berkley, MI
I heard about the ARP bolts bottoming out a few years back on milled heads. That, coupled with the fact I was milling, was one of the reasons I went with the GM TTY.
I also see alot of cometics/ARP stud "leaking threads" FWIW. I vote TTY only because that is what I have with a similar set-up and it is problem free.
I also see alot of cometics/ARP stud "leaking threads" FWIW. I vote TTY only because that is what I have with a similar set-up and it is problem free.
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Brett Foote
Teching In
Joined: Mar 2005
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From: Michigan
My AFR's are milled approx. .035 with stock MLS GM gaskets and ARP bolt kit on my 02 Z06 with no problems as of yet. I did compare ALL the bolt lengths against the stock bolts with the naked eye with no discernable difference in them.
TECH Regular
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 414
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From: Berkley, MI
With that much milling you would think it would be you with the cometics. It does not make sense that he "bottomed out" then.
Your gasket off-sets some of the milling and negativley impacts quench. He brought his head down .014 with just a gasket (assuming mls stock =.054). You brought yours down .035 and then "put them back up" .014 with that gasket (over the cometics).
I milled .030 and used a .045 cometics. GM Bolts no problems.
Your gasket off-sets some of the milling and negativley impacts quench. He brought his head down .014 with just a gasket (assuming mls stock =.054). You brought yours down .035 and then "put them back up" .014 with that gasket (over the cometics).
I milled .030 and used a .045 cometics. GM Bolts no problems.
Originally Posted by PREDATOR-Z
If your heads are unmilled and you have no power adder, just use TTY bolts. You have neither high cyl. pressures nor high compression, so why worry?
Ive always been the type to install the best things if Im going to get in there and open it up. I thought why not install ARPs since I want to put the KB blower on there once its offically released.
Dixit
TECH Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 14,620
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From: BFE
Yeah, I understand that part, but if the problem is in your block, you might not have a choice.
BTW a +6* overlap cam might not be the best choice for blower applications.
BTW a +6* overlap cam might not be the best choice for blower applications.
Last edited by PREDATOR-Z; Sep 25, 2005 at 02:52 PM.
Oh no, the cam is definetely coming out when that time comes.
But you feel its still a problem if I go with Studs? I mean I cant run into a problem of them bottoming out then.
Dixit
But you feel its still a problem if I go with Studs? I mean I cant run into a problem of them bottoming out then.
Dixit
I was pre-warned about this problem your running into now.
Only 2 months ago, I was also having my AFR 205cc heads installed, and as per the directions, we're to use ARP bolts or studs, and the docs supplied the part numbers. ARP Bolts were lised as 134-3609.
I went to my local speed shop, they stock the ARP bolts, to purchase the set. Before that tech/sales person let me out the door, I was warned that I might need 1 of 2 sets of bolts. One set contains all bolts at the same length, the other set had a combo of short and long bolts. One set is designed for the f-body LSx block, the other is designed for the corvette LS6 engine block.
He states they personally ran into various blocks in our f-bodies, and that it was impossible to tell which set of bolts you'd need until you got inside.
So as a percauction, I bought both sets of bolts, the shop agreed to take back the unused set.
My block used the standard AFR recomendation, 134-3609, but Im not surprised to hear yours is different.
Only 2 months ago, I was also having my AFR 205cc heads installed, and as per the directions, we're to use ARP bolts or studs, and the docs supplied the part numbers. ARP Bolts were lised as 134-3609.
I went to my local speed shop, they stock the ARP bolts, to purchase the set. Before that tech/sales person let me out the door, I was warned that I might need 1 of 2 sets of bolts. One set contains all bolts at the same length, the other set had a combo of short and long bolts. One set is designed for the f-body LSx block, the other is designed for the corvette LS6 engine block.
He states they personally ran into various blocks in our f-bodies, and that it was impossible to tell which set of bolts you'd need until you got inside.
So as a percauction, I bought both sets of bolts, the shop agreed to take back the unused set.
My block used the standard AFR recomendation, 134-3609, but Im not surprised to hear yours is different.
TECH Veteran
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,055
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From: Hartsdale, NY
I've heard LOTS of people have had the same problem with ARP bolts. I thought they had a bad batch that was too long....
Go back and use standard lenght GM bolts.. Just hope the ARPs did not damage your block. I did GM bolts on my .o55 shaved heads and they are fine...
Go back and use standard lenght GM bolts.. Just hope the ARPs did not damage your block. I did GM bolts on my .o55 shaved heads and they are fine...
Yea the 134-3609 is what I got. Thats what you want for LS1/LS6 engines upto 2003. 2004 they changed it where all the M15 bolts were same length. Since I have a 2002 the 134-3609 is what I ordered. Now let me make sure Im clear in that the bolts are not too long by 1" or more, they are too long by say about 1/8". The 2004 bolt set have 4 bolts that are longer by almost 2". It makes up for the 2 bolts per side on the ends that were only about 4" short in length.
Im kicking myself in that I wish I just ordered the studs from day one. If I got the studs then I wouldnt have this problem of them being too long because then the bolt on the otherside will make up for that by just threading more onto the stud.
Dixit
Im kicking myself in that I wish I just ordered the studs from day one. If I got the studs then I wouldnt have this problem of them being too long because then the bolt on the otherside will make up for that by just threading more onto the stud.
Dixit
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Joined: Mar 2003
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Originally Posted by Dixit
Im kicking myself in that I wish I just ordered the studs from day one. If I got the studs then I wouldnt have this problem of them being too long because then the bolt on the otherside will make up for that by just threading more onto the stud.
Dixit
I did the studs out of pure luck... I did not realize there were issues with the bolts...
Good Luck...
