Best heads
Originally Posted by Malihoochie
I find it amazing, that when a company that has such a successful, and deep racing history and is responsible for pioneering aftermarket cylinder heads builds what the market cries out for - a alternative to the high priced heads currently out there, that make as much or more power for less money - internet "experts" decide that they know more than the deeply involved in motorsports manufacturer. Nice.
Staging Lane
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
From: N?W
Originally Posted by Nate_Taufer
I've only seen about 5 dyno sheets from cars with ETP heads and the lowest dyno'd 444 rwhp (in an A4 mind you). You will be hard pressed to find a better head on the market.
nate
I'm also kinda curious how an 11 degree valve angle automatically guarantees a smaller cross sectional area. I see where it could be possible, but the blanket statment that it does is very "internetish"...........................
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 8,484
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From: Cecil County Raceway!!!
Originally Posted by Rookie
I saw a 6.0 dyno sheet at 444RWHP were there any 346 dyno sheets posted with all the necessary info?
I'm also kinda curious how an 11 degree valve angle automatically guarantees a smaller cross sectional area. I see where it could be possible, but the blanket statment that it does is very "internetish"...........................
I'm also kinda curious how an 11 degree valve angle automatically guarantees a smaller cross sectional area. I see where it could be possible, but the blanket statment that it does is very "internetish"...........................
On The Tree
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 102
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From: Suburbs of Detroit
Flow numbers God I hope someday people take flow numbers and throw them out the damm window, flow benches, engine dynos, and chassis dynos do not win races. Period end of story. A very reputable builder who you guys praise on here built a motor using the ET 215 heads and our as cast 225 amde more horsepower, unported out of the box! You guys keep talking about flow numbers, we can change the combustion chamber on the heads to kill 50 horsepower and never even affect the flow numbers. Sewer pipes flow awesome on a flow bench but dont make horsepower. There are so many things that have an affect on the flow numbers, bore size, radiused inlet, calibration of bench, altitude the bench is flowing it both corrected and uncorrected, barometer, I am sure there is something I am missing. Anyways get off flow numbers a decent built engine should make an easy 450 horsepower with the 225 heads. The stock heads even ported have limitations, the chamber needs serious help, and the way they flow when tested at 55 inches with fuel added wont even compare to the Dart heads. If you want to get into flow numbers, then ask people what their heads flow on a wet bench at 55 inches of fluid, this is where the real numbers matter and this is where the reality sets in, what works on this equipment will work on the engine. Period!
P.S. If your goals are higher than the Dart heads for power then greast get the big runners made by ET, AFR whoever, but runner volume for runner volume the dart heads as cast are awesome.
P.S. If your goals are higher than the Dart heads for power then greast get the big runners made by ET, AFR whoever, but runner volume for runner volume the dart heads as cast are awesome.
On The Tree
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 105
Likes: 0
From: Detroit - suburbs
I have a nice pic of our wet flow bench if someone could host it - it is a pretty impressive machine. 55 - 60" is representative of what goes on in the engine when you're on the pedal. 28" is a industry standard that is not accurate once the motor is accellerated. It's enough to make you go 
!
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Verdad Gallardo Joined: Nov 2001
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From: Cecil County Raceway!!!
Originally Posted by Dart331Stroker
P.S. If your goals are higher than the Dart heads for power then greast get the big runners made by ET, AFR whoever, but runner volume for runner volume the dart heads as cast are awesome.
Originally Posted by Dart331Stroker
A very reputable builder who you guys praise on here built a motor using the ET 215 heads and our as cast 225 amde more horsepower, unported out of the box!
who did the motor and who did the tuning? Same dyno? engine dyno or chassis dyno? If you have access to both of those graphs that would be appreciated. Nate
Originally Posted by Rookie
I saw a 6.0 dyno sheet at 444RWHP were there any 346 dyno sheets posted with all the necessary info?
I'm also kinda curious how an 11 degree valve angle automatically guarantees a smaller cross sectional area. I see where it could be possible, but the blanket statment that it does is very "internetish"...........................
I'm also kinda curious how an 11 degree valve angle automatically guarantees a smaller cross sectional area. I see where it could be possible, but the blanket statment that it does is very "internetish"...........................
The runner is longer because of the fact that the valve is 11 degrees vs 15 degrees and the valve is place farther from the intake opening. based on simple geometry, when you have a longer (not larger) runner with the same port area, cross sectional area is diminished.
I guess simple math is very "internetish" though.
Nate
TECH Resident
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 848
Likes: 1
From: Working in the shop 24/7
Originally Posted by Dart331Stroker
God I hope someday people take flow numbers and throw them out the damm window, flow benches, engine dynos, and chassis dynos do not win races. Period end of story.
Ed
Originally Posted by Dart331Stroker
God I hope someday people take flow numbers and throw them out the damm window, flow benches, engine dynos, and chassis dynos do not win races. Period end of story.
Originally Posted by Dart331Stroker
A very reputable builder who you guys praise on here built a motor using the ET 215 heads and our as cast 225 amde more horsepower, unported out of the box!
I'm not saying that Darts don't have their place. And I really can't imagine Dart releasing a product that is junk. Is it the best, kick *** LSx head right out of the box? NO. Are you getting ripped off? NO. You are getting a set of heads that will make decent power for a decent price. Dollar for horsepower, I wouldn't consider the Darts a bad choice. Personally for me, Dollar for horsepower, the ET's are out of my price range. But if money wasn't an issue - they would be on my car right now.
Staging Lane
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
From: N?W
Originally Posted by Nate_Taufer
If you search for "ETP" in the dyno threads you'll find a few 5.7 liter results.
The runner is longer because of the fact that the valve is 11 degrees vs 15 degrees and the valve is place farther from the intake opening. based on simple geometry, when you have a longer (not larger) runner with the same port area, cross sectional area is diminished.
I guess simple math is very "internetish" though.
Nate
The runner is longer because of the fact that the valve is 11 degrees vs 15 degrees and the valve is place farther from the intake opening. based on simple geometry, when you have a longer (not larger) runner with the same port area, cross sectional area is diminished.
I guess simple math is very "internetish" though.
Nate
Perhaps you can edumacate me on how an "hour glass shaped" port at 11 degrees and 215cc can have a smaller cross sectional area, than one that is properly designed and shaped at 12 or 15 degrees and 215cc?
I'm just trying to point out with extremes how a blanket statement like that can be incorrect. The reality is we don't really have enough information to say whether or not the cross section is smaller just because of the valve angle.
* Disclaimer: The ET heads I saw at PRI are certainly things of beauty and look to be very well shaped and designed.
Originally Posted by Dart331Stroker
God I hope someday people take flow numbers and throw them out the damm window, flow benches, engine dynos, and chassis dynos do not win races. Period end of story. A very reputable builder who you guys praise on here built a motor using the ET 215 heads and our as cast 225 amde more horsepower, unported out of the box! Sewer pipes flow awesome on a flow bench but dont make horsepower. Anyways get off flow numbers a decent built engine should make an easy 450 horsepower with the 225 heads.
P.S. If your goals are higher than the Dart heads for power then greast get the big runners made by ET, AFR whoever, but runner volume for runner volume the dart heads as cast are awesome.
P.S. If your goals are higher than the Dart heads for power then greast get the big runners made by ET, AFR whoever, but runner volume for runner volume the dart heads as cast are awesome.
One thing that is clouding the issue for me, is the apples to oranges compariasons.
If the standard, so to speak, for a powerful STREET head has been the 205 AFR head, then how can we compare it to any 215s, and 225s? Does the 225 produce the low end "streetable" torque that most guys want, or are we sacrificing that for "big numbers" on a dyno? (that's not a statement, that's a question)D331 - If you're saying that the Dart's CC design is what help make the new heads make power, then that should show when we start seeing some hp#s. Don't take any of this as negative, we appricate you sharing the information with us. I'm on your side, If Dart has producted a head that can make the power out of the box for 1/2 the price of the more expensive offering, then they should be commended for doing so. I, like everyone else, don't want to spend any more than "necessary" to get the "best head". That way I can use the rest to be able to buy the overpriced gas and cruise
Originally Posted by BOTTLE ROCKET
One thing that is clouding the issue for me, is the apples to oranges compariasons.
Is it true that Dart is going to another spring setup from the PSI currently being used? (Saw this in another thread and I was going to pull the trigger on a set this weekend).
On The Tree
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 105
Likes: 0
From: Detroit - suburbs
The post titled "dart as cast test" should be of interest to those of you asking where/what/whose dyno? Wheel to Wheel has built many very impressive LSx motors and even hold a record or two.
Itchygomey98 - Unfortunately the end user is somewhat stuck, because dry flow #'s (which mean next to nothing) get rammed down everyones throat. These flow #'s that get tossed about often are not equal comparissons (25", 28", inlet pipes, inlet radius plates, radiused clay, w/ exhaust pipe, w/o exhaust pipe, difference in temp., etc.) And no, most people can not afford to test every head, so the masses are trapped trying to make sense of flow #'s that usually don't tell the whole story.
BTW who does have the best, kick *** LSx head right out of the box? And how do you compare them? Dart chose to produce a as cast head to rival the cnc'd offerings by AFR & ET so the average guy could keep some $$$ in his wallet while benifiting from our experience making racing cylinder heads. And from our feedback - so far they are doing just that.
Vettenuts - There is another spring that is being considered, it is capable of more lift, but all the current heads have the PSI #1511's. The current PSI's are a great spring, but I can see why you might be looking to wait for "the next thing" if it is gonna "fit" better with your over .625" lift cam. If the spring change happens - I'm not sure when it would take place.
Itchygomey98 - Unfortunately the end user is somewhat stuck, because dry flow #'s (which mean next to nothing) get rammed down everyones throat. These flow #'s that get tossed about often are not equal comparissons (25", 28", inlet pipes, inlet radius plates, radiused clay, w/ exhaust pipe, w/o exhaust pipe, difference in temp., etc.) And no, most people can not afford to test every head, so the masses are trapped trying to make sense of flow #'s that usually don't tell the whole story.
BTW who does have the best, kick *** LSx head right out of the box? And how do you compare them? Dart chose to produce a as cast head to rival the cnc'd offerings by AFR & ET so the average guy could keep some $$$ in his wallet while benifiting from our experience making racing cylinder heads. And from our feedback - so far they are doing just that.
Vettenuts - There is another spring that is being considered, it is capable of more lift, but all the current heads have the PSI #1511's. The current PSI's are a great spring, but I can see why you might be looking to wait for "the next thing" if it is gonna "fit" better with your over .625" lift cam. If the spring change happens - I'm not sure when it would take place.
Originally Posted by Malihoochie
Vettenuts - There is another spring that is being considered, it is capable of more lift, but all the current heads have the PSI #1511's. The current PSI's are a great spring, but I can see why you might be looking to wait for "the next thing" if it is gonna "fit" better with your over .625" lift cam. If the spring change happens - I'm not sure when it would take place.
"15000 Series
This series has all the benefits of the 1200's plus an additional nitriding operation. The nitriding operation, which is also done in house, increases the strength at the surface of the wire and at the same time causes a slight softening of the core material. This trade-off in hardness results in a gain in endurance for the Circle Track and Road Racing Circuit teams who are limited by the onset of fatigue at the wire surface. Since drag racers are not limited by endurance, the loss of core hardness does not make nitriding suitable for their applications."
Based on this description, this sound like a good approach for a street driven car since it sounds like the fatique life is increased. However, since the peak stress is on the outer surface I am somewhat confused unless the fatigue life curve is favorably altered through nitriding. I am confused on the last statement with regards to drag racing.
However, overall they look like really good springs unless the fatigue curve doesn't support the cycles from a street driven vehicle. These looks just like the Isky beehive springs made by PSI, does anyone have any experience with them as far as longevity?
Last edited by vettenuts; Dec 14, 2005 at 06:40 PM.