DART vs ETP vs AFR
01-16-2006, 04:14 PM
#41
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Your right Alot of companies do focus on different things! Like some just throw out flow numbers like Bush taxes our paychecks!! We prefer not to play the flow numbers war. For alot of reasons, onw which like Bret mentioned, some heads flow well at 28inches, which isnt reality when it comes to a real engine. But when you flow them at a higher level like 55 inches like we do when we design them, some heads are horrible and go backwards on the bench. Also alot of heads we test on the wet bench wont move the fuel our heads do, they also wet down the plug, and kill it.....
We take a different approach when we design a head, sure we look at all the competition, even the ported stock heads. We then spend hundreds of hours porting different models and testing on the wet flow bench. We use the wet bench as after years of using it with our NHRA team and working with Roush's cup team we learned that if it does this on that bench it will do this at the race track. So we design the whole entire head with that approach. Runners, even the little air foil, or fin in port turns a certain way because it puts the fuel into the correct areas of the chamber sure you can remove this and pick up air flow put it hurts the fuel entry into the chamber, chamber shape, valve job angles, even the degree across the back of the Dart valves are all relative to things we learn on the wet bench. Spark plug placement can even rob power but doesnt have any effect on the flow numbers that you see on a standard flow bench!! We take everything into consideration, just like the fact we now use a .439 outer diameter guide in our LS series heads to narrow the guide boss. I think just about all still use .502 diameters... I know the ET ones are... Sometimes we wonder do we jsut sacrifice to the masses make a head that flows all them glory numbers everybody likes to read about and cash in our checks, or stay true to form??? I mean even if we just had big numbers 80% of the people out there wouldnt know they could have bought a head that flowed less air and made more horsepower, they would never think of it!!!
I know we are new to the LS1 market but we have been doing this for 25 years as a business, and since the 70's Richard has led the way in pioneering things used in the old NHRA...
Dart has the distinction of being the first aftermarket heads ever made for NHRA and IHRA Top Fuel Cars, first in the fours, first over 300mph, and Dart Big Chief heads one 3 out of 5 championships from 1996-2002, until NHRA outlawed Dart heads... So yes we are new to LS 1 heads but it like any other engine, is nothing but an air pump, just has a different shape!!
We take a different approach when we design a head, sure we look at all the competition, even the ported stock heads. We then spend hundreds of hours porting different models and testing on the wet flow bench. We use the wet bench as after years of using it with our NHRA team and working with Roush's cup team we learned that if it does this on that bench it will do this at the race track. So we design the whole entire head with that approach. Runners, even the little air foil, or fin in port turns a certain way because it puts the fuel into the correct areas of the chamber sure you can remove this and pick up air flow put it hurts the fuel entry into the chamber, chamber shape, valve job angles, even the degree across the back of the Dart valves are all relative to things we learn on the wet bench. Spark plug placement can even rob power but doesnt have any effect on the flow numbers that you see on a standard flow bench!! We take everything into consideration, just like the fact we now use a .439 outer diameter guide in our LS series heads to narrow the guide boss. I think just about all still use .502 diameters... I know the ET ones are... Sometimes we wonder do we jsut sacrifice to the masses make a head that flows all them glory numbers everybody likes to read about and cash in our checks, or stay true to form??? I mean even if we just had big numbers 80% of the people out there wouldnt know they could have bought a head that flowed less air and made more horsepower, they would never think of it!!!
I know we are new to the LS1 market but we have been doing this for 25 years as a business, and since the 70's Richard has led the way in pioneering things used in the old NHRA...
Dart has the distinction of being the first aftermarket heads ever made for NHRA and IHRA Top Fuel Cars, first in the fours, first over 300mph, and Dart Big Chief heads one 3 out of 5 championships from 1996-2002, until NHRA outlawed Dart heads... So yes we are new to LS 1 heads but it like any other engine, is nothing but an air pump, just has a different shape!!
01-16-2006, 04:50 PM
#42
Originally Posted by Dart331Stroker
just like the fact we now use a .439 outer diameter guide in our LS series heads to narrow the guide boss.
Originally Posted by Dart331Stroker
I mean even if we just had big numbers 80% of the people out there wouldnt know they could have bought a head that flowed less air and made more horsepower, they would never think of it!!!
Bret
01-16-2006, 05:04 PM
#43
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331, dont get me wrong please. I love learning these little things. I was wanting to buy Dart heads, but not until they are cnc ported. Why? Well, I have had some unpleasant experiences in this arena, and do not want to gamble that my new cast Darts would come back and make the most for my combo. Unfortunately there are some ppl like me, not willing to sacrifice the unknown for the known. I am sure once the Dart programs are up and running, I think I read by summer, there will be much more in terms of sales, feedback, and of course the time tested Dart winning. Hell, I might still buy a set, based off what you feel works best with my combo, swap them out and see what gains/losses if any, quarter mile, mileage, and driveability all considered. I would rather do it with an "out of box" or "off the shelf" cnc ported Dart, just to make it apples to apples. I am sure that there are some porters that could tailor a set of X brand heads to my combo, but that wouldnt be as even a comparison.
01-16-2006, 10:17 PM
#45
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Originally Posted by CAT3
Got mad jokes for someone with such a slow, when it was running, car! Might want to spend more time wrenching less time typing!
01-16-2006, 11:59 PM
#47
Originally Posted by cary et performance
jeremy,
check out what I just posted over in ls7 -ls2 engine tech about our 4"bore ls7 head, flow numbers are there too
check out what I just posted over in ls7 -ls2 engine tech about our 4"bore ls7 head, flow numbers are there too
Nice I just read the thread.
I cant believe you didn't call me and let me be the first to know since I have only asked you for this combo like fiftyeleven times.
That is great for the 402/408 guys wanting to run the LS7 intake. 3000 heads, plus 300 for intake, isn't much more then 2400 for heads and 750 for fast 90 intake.
Should be a nice combo.
01-17-2006, 12:24 AM
#48
Originally Posted by Dart331Stroker
Alot of companies do focus on different things! Like some just throw out flow numbers like Bush taxes our paychecks!! We prefer not to play the flow numbers war. For alot of reasons, onw which like Bret mentioned, some heads flow well at 28inches, which isnt reality when it comes to a real engine. But when you flow them at a higher level like 55 inches like we do when we design them, some heads are horrible and go backwards on the bench. Also alot of heads we test on the wet bench wont move the fuel our heads do, they also wet down the plug, and kill it.....
We take a different approach when we design a head, sure we look at all the competition, even the ported stock heads. We then spend hundreds of hours porting different models and testing on the wet flow bench. We use the wet bench as after years of using it with our NHRA team and working with Roush's cup team we learned that if it does this on that bench it will do this at the race track. So we design the whole entire head with that approach. Runners, even the little air foil, or fin in port turns a certain way because it puts the fuel into the correct areas of the chamber sure you can remove this and pick up air flow put it hurts the fuel entry into the chamber, chamber shape, valve job angles, even the degree across the back of the Dart valves are all relative to things we learn on the wet bench. Spark plug placement can even rob power but doesnt have any effect on the flow numbers that you see on a standard flow bench!! We take everything into consideration, just like the fact we now use a .439 outer diameter guide in our LS series heads to narrow the guide boss. I think just about all still use .502 diameters... I know the ET ones are... Sometimes we wonder do we jsut sacrifice to the masses make a head that flows all them glory numbers everybody likes to read about and cash in our checks, or stay true to form??? I mean even if we just had big numbers 80% of the people out there wouldnt know they could have bought a head that flowed less air and made more horsepower, they would never think of it!!!
I know we are new to the LS1 market but we have been doing this for 25 years as a business, and since the 70's Richard has led the way in pioneering things used in the old NHRA...
Dart has the distinction of being the first aftermarket heads ever made for NHRA and IHRA Top Fuel Cars, first in the fours, first over 300mph, and Dart Big Chief heads one 3 out of 5 championships from 1996-2002, until NHRA outlawed Dart heads... So yes we are new to LS 1 heads but it like any other engine, is nothing but an air pump, just has a different shape!!
We take a different approach when we design a head, sure we look at all the competition, even the ported stock heads. We then spend hundreds of hours porting different models and testing on the wet flow bench. We use the wet bench as after years of using it with our NHRA team and working with Roush's cup team we learned that if it does this on that bench it will do this at the race track. So we design the whole entire head with that approach. Runners, even the little air foil, or fin in port turns a certain way because it puts the fuel into the correct areas of the chamber sure you can remove this and pick up air flow put it hurts the fuel entry into the chamber, chamber shape, valve job angles, even the degree across the back of the Dart valves are all relative to things we learn on the wet bench. Spark plug placement can even rob power but doesnt have any effect on the flow numbers that you see on a standard flow bench!! We take everything into consideration, just like the fact we now use a .439 outer diameter guide in our LS series heads to narrow the guide boss. I think just about all still use .502 diameters... I know the ET ones are... Sometimes we wonder do we jsut sacrifice to the masses make a head that flows all them glory numbers everybody likes to read about and cash in our checks, or stay true to form??? I mean even if we just had big numbers 80% of the people out there wouldnt know they could have bought a head that flowed less air and made more horsepower, they would never think of it!!!
I know we are new to the LS1 market but we have been doing this for 25 years as a business, and since the 70's Richard has led the way in pioneering things used in the old NHRA...
Dart has the distinction of being the first aftermarket heads ever made for NHRA and IHRA Top Fuel Cars, first in the fours, first over 300mph, and Dart Big Chief heads one 3 out of 5 championships from 1996-2002, until NHRA outlawed Dart heads... So yes we are new to LS 1 heads but it like any other engine, is nothing but an air pump, just has a different shape!!
Dont take this wrong, but calm down buddy.
Its great you have done this that and the other on the heads. Nice to see you have 25 years of business, and one of the only wet flow benches on earth.
Maybe you didn't realize this but noone cares.
I mean we care but not as much as we care about HP numbers and 1/4 mile times.
You have a new product. People are testing the heads you offer. Dont worry about anything if good feedback comes out your product will be talked about in a good way.
I could give 2 ***** if my ET heads had a drawing in the port of spiderman geting his *** kicked by superman, if the bitches make enough power ON MY COMBO I am happy.
(would be pretty bad *** to see 2 comic hero's fighting in a cylinder head wouldn't it)
Honestly guys, feel confident about your product. The price is more then fair. If quatily it top notch maybe 3-4 months from now people will address dart as the top of the LS1 food chain. It just takes time. Think of it this way.
You dont feel someone should buy and bragg about a cylinder that flows 330cfm's, so why should someone buy and or bragg about a dart head because you say how great it is???? By no means am I saying your head isn't great, just making a point.
01-17-2006, 12:29 AM
#49
On a side note. Jay from Absolute speed used to bragg about a wet flow bench.
I remember he stoped polishing the cumbustion chamber on his NA heads as he felt the fuel didn't mix as well. Many feel that without polished chambers the head will run hoter, and cause detonation.
What is your feeling on this?
Do you guys feel that polishing the chamber can hurt in fuel atomize???
I will see if I can dig for a quick minute and find his post....
I remember he stoped polishing the cumbustion chamber on his NA heads as he felt the fuel didn't mix as well. Many feel that without polished chambers the head will run hoter, and cause detonation.
What is your feeling on this?
Do you guys feel that polishing the chamber can hurt in fuel atomize???
I will see if I can dig for a quick minute and find his post....
Last edited by JZ'sTA; 01-17-2006 at 12:37 AM.
01-17-2006, 12:37 AM
#50
Question "Anyways I recieved the heads and the CC IS NOT polished.
What is up with that?
From what I have read and been told the porting really helps when trying to run high compression. A 12:1 motor will make more power and will beable to run more timing if the CC's are polished. I read in a book at barns and noble that the head will heat up faster and cause knock.
Any theorys here. I know the heads are good heads, just trying to figure out the difference between the polished and non polished setup.
Every other porter polishes the heads. We all know that AS heads are at the top and that is the reason we use them, is this what seperates AS heads from the others?
Sorry I have to post this here Jay, I would just ask you myself except you are near impossible to get in touch with"
Answer
"you guys think you know to much, I already answered this question. Look at super flows web site you will find a new wet flow tester that tests how the fuel in the air reacts as it enters the cumbustion chamber. I have found by doing research not by asking a bunch of people on this board who think the know it all but know nothing that leaving the rough texture cuases fuel to atomize better in the chamber, It will also create a more even burn, polished chambers make fuel fall out of suspenion and burn uneven. uneven burn in the chambers will cuase detonation."
I have been working on these heads since they came out I have made more power than anyone but people keep questioning, thinking they know more than me
By the way Jeremy, I just finished porting one of the lsx intakes I am sending both back with the 5.3's. The one that goes with the 5.3s is marked. try giving me an email sales@absolutespeedls1.net
What is up with that?
From what I have read and been told the porting really helps when trying to run high compression. A 12:1 motor will make more power and will beable to run more timing if the CC's are polished. I read in a book at barns and noble that the head will heat up faster and cause knock.
Any theorys here. I know the heads are good heads, just trying to figure out the difference between the polished and non polished setup.
Every other porter polishes the heads. We all know that AS heads are at the top and that is the reason we use them, is this what seperates AS heads from the others?
Sorry I have to post this here Jay, I would just ask you myself except you are near impossible to get in touch with"
Answer
"you guys think you know to much, I already answered this question. Look at super flows web site you will find a new wet flow tester that tests how the fuel in the air reacts as it enters the cumbustion chamber. I have found by doing research not by asking a bunch of people on this board who think the know it all but know nothing that leaving the rough texture cuases fuel to atomize better in the chamber, It will also create a more even burn, polished chambers make fuel fall out of suspenion and burn uneven. uneven burn in the chambers will cuase detonation."
I have been working on these heads since they came out I have made more power than anyone but people keep questioning, thinking they know more than me
By the way Jeremy, I just finished porting one of the lsx intakes I am sending both back with the 5.3's. The one that goes with the 5.3s is marked. try giving me an email sales@absolutespeedls1.net
01-17-2006, 12:44 AM
#51
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Which head would I buy today (out of the three brands listed) if I were to try to hit 500rwhp on a street driven stock cube ls1? I know the answer to my question. 
Now give me a cookie already.
Now give me a cookie already.
01-17-2006, 11:01 AM
#52
Originally Posted by JZ'sTA
Dont take this wrong, but calm down buddy.
Its great you have done this that and the other on the heads. Nice to see you have 25 years of business, and one of the only wet flow benches on earth.
Maybe you didn't realize this but noone cares.
Its great you have done this that and the other on the heads. Nice to see you have 25 years of business, and one of the only wet flow benches on earth.
Maybe you didn't realize this but noone cares.
Some also care about ports that back up at high lifts, and understand why that's a bad thing. Some don't.
Bret
01-17-2006, 11:14 AM
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The Pro Stock team @ Reher-Morrison cares too! Last summer R-M's main cylinder head guru (Darin Morgan) was here in Michigan 3-4 times & glued to that wet flow bench. He claimed more info in a week than in a year w/o it!
01-17-2006, 11:37 AM
#55
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If there's one thing I learned from being on this board it's people are very quick to judge. I remember when MTI heads were god and every "new" head to come into the market wasn't..then after time people started to realize differently. AFR's came on the market and didn't really have a very good following at first..now look, people are all about those..now ETP..
Just think about when the FAST LSX intakes first hit..and shops where dynoing them like crazy and showing poor results everyone jumped and said how much they sucked...now there isn't a post on here when I don't see people saying "add a FAST 90/90 to that..."
Flownumbers, dyno's and even overall ET's are worthless for any type of comparision is my eye...this is a nationwide board and what one car, dyno or flowbench does in TX, FL, NY..etc is completely different from what another one will do locally
Just think about when the FAST LSX intakes first hit..and shops where dynoing them like crazy and showing poor results everyone jumped and said how much they sucked...now there isn't a post on here when I don't see people saying "add a FAST 90/90 to that..."
Flownumbers, dyno's and even overall ET's are worthless for any type of comparision is my eye...this is a nationwide board and what one car, dyno or flowbench does in TX, FL, NY..etc is completely different from what another one will do locally
01-17-2006, 12:09 PM
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B A 2002z28 - you are right, in that many people are quick to judge. Sometimes people fear change I guess. Take a little of everyones input with a grain of salt & weigh the real world results when they come out. Dart is pretty confident the results will be good, just as many other companies out there feel their product is an improvement over the current offering. 
01-17-2006, 12:49 PM
#58
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Dart,
Isn't it funny how the internet can defy physics with brand loyalty? One day your a hero, the next a zero...and it really doesn't matter if you cast from pepsi cans or a356. I commend your company again for bringing some technology to the lsx platform and am having allot of fun with your design.
Everyone else,
Comparing heads by brand name and flow numbers is not a very sceintific move. I understand that most of you have more NHRA records under your belt then most "professionals" in the business. Unfortunately though, pay question, because the market you are in and most of the time the decisions being made are all based on smoke and mirrors. The technology availible today in induction systems is far more than the average consumer can digest in a timely fashion (with or without the internet). Find someone who produces results and follow their plan. Remember, opinion based posts result in opinion based answers and I have never heard of anyone racing opinions.
Dennis
Isn't it funny how the internet can defy physics with brand loyalty? One day your a hero, the next a zero...and it really doesn't matter if you cast from pepsi cans or a356. I commend your company again for bringing some technology to the lsx platform and am having allot of fun with your design.
Everyone else,
Comparing heads by brand name and flow numbers is not a very sceintific move. I understand that most of you have more NHRA records under your belt then most "professionals" in the business. Unfortunately though, pay question, because the market you are in and most of the time the decisions being made are all based on smoke and mirrors. The technology availible today in induction systems is far more than the average consumer can digest in a timely fashion (with or without the internet). Find someone who produces results and follow their plan. Remember, opinion based posts result in opinion based answers and I have never heard of anyone racing opinions.
Dennis
01-17-2006, 01:40 PM
#59
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yup
Originally Posted by Malihoochie
B A 2002z28 - you are right, in that many people are quick to judge. Sometimes people fear change I guess. Take a little of everyones input with a grain of salt & weigh the real world results when they come out. Dart is pretty confident the results will be good, just as many other companies out there feel their product is an improvement over the current offering.
cary
01-17-2006, 06:59 PM
#60
Originally Posted by SStrokerAce
Some people do....
Some also care about ports that back up at high lifts, and understand why that's a bad thing. Some don't.
Bret
Some also care about ports that back up at high lifts, and understand why that's a bad thing. Some don't.
Bret
Bret you normally are on here trying to help, and for that I say thanks.
However please dont twist what I say to make my words sound different then what I mean. You took only part of my quote when in fact the very next sentence is here" I mean we care but not as much as we care about HP numbers and 1/4 mile times.
You have a new product. People are testing the heads you offer. Dont worry about anything if good feedback comes out your product will be talked about in a good way."
And if you care more about how a head gets made then you do about how fast your car is with the heads on then you are in a very small groupe of people. Feel free to bash what I type as I am not always correct and any time someone can correct me and help me learn something new thats great. But please dont twist something I say to try and make me look foolish, trust me I am good enough at doing that on my own.
Thanks
