Heads cam confusion!!!!
02-12-2006, 07:40 PM
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Heads cam confusion!!!! So I start pricing h/c kit from different companies and hear alot of good things and some not so good things. I have seen dyno numbers of people putting down over 400 rwhp with bolt-ons and a cam. But according to some a cam only can't make thoses numbers and h/c can't make 450/460.
To start I called HPE and the gentlemen told me with his H/C setup without butterfly cutting my pistons I could achieve 450/465 no problem. {They have thier 5.3 heads on sale for 1700.00}.
Then I called S.A.M. and the tell me 450 rwhp with all the bolt-ons and thier H/C easily.
So about this time I'm thinking awesome. I have a friend who is looking to sale a Thunder Racing H/C package he had on his car 3 years ago. TR224 /114 LSA and GTP heads for a good price. Now his car only put down 380 rwhp with all bolt-ons and no tuning. But he kept claiming it should have made 450. So I call Thunder Racing and ask the guy about this heads cam package and was shocked. He said that H/C package was good for 410/420 rwhp. I asked he if it was because the cam was small and he said no that is what h/c ls1 put down. I asked if I could put a larger cam in it to get 450 range and he said that was not possible. NO LYE he said that 450/460 rwhp from a H/C ls1 was not possible. I told him I have seen dynos of cam only cars making 410/420 and h/c making 450 plus. He just said NO.
CONFUSING RIGHT....
So I called Patroit Performance because I noticed they did alot of Futural cammed car to ask him what number to execept from H/C and he said 430/440 best case. That only cars that put down those 450 hp numbers have 100 hours of dyno time. And a cammed car with bolt-ons won't make over 400rwhp.
{ A part I left out was when I talked to HPE they gentlemen told me with a 402 H/C i could put down 530rwhp easily. Thunder told me that there is no way a H/C package will put down 450 plus because that is what there 422 make.}
My personally opinion is Thunder is a bit in the dark ages with the hole ls1 setup. Almost like they don't want to get with the technology.
So what do yo all think?
To start I called HPE and the gentlemen told me with his H/C setup without butterfly cutting my pistons I could achieve 450/465 no problem. {They have thier 5.3 heads on sale for 1700.00}.
Then I called S.A.M. and the tell me 450 rwhp with all the bolt-ons and thier H/C easily.
So about this time I'm thinking awesome. I have a friend who is looking to sale a Thunder Racing H/C package he had on his car 3 years ago. TR224 /114 LSA and GTP heads for a good price. Now his car only put down 380 rwhp with all bolt-ons and no tuning. But he kept claiming it should have made 450. So I call Thunder Racing and ask the guy about this heads cam package and was shocked. He said that H/C package was good for 410/420 rwhp. I asked he if it was because the cam was small and he said no that is what h/c ls1 put down. I asked if I could put a larger cam in it to get 450 range and he said that was not possible. NO LYE he said that 450/460 rwhp from a H/C ls1 was not possible. I told him I have seen dynos of cam only cars making 410/420 and h/c making 450 plus. He just said NO.
CONFUSING RIGHT....
So I called Patroit Performance because I noticed they did alot of Futural cammed car to ask him what number to execept from H/C and he said 430/440 best case. That only cars that put down those 450 hp numbers have 100 hours of dyno time. And a cammed car with bolt-ons won't make over 400rwhp.
{ A part I left out was when I talked to HPE they gentlemen told me with a 402 H/C i could put down 530rwhp easily. Thunder told me that there is no way a H/C package will put down 450 plus because that is what there 422 make.}
My personally opinion is Thunder is a bit in the dark ages with the hole ls1 setup. Almost like they don't want to get with the technology.
So what do yo all think?
02-12-2006, 08:50 PM
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The numbers speak for themselves, there are plenty of 450ish rwhp setups. The first thing to look at is transmission, most of these setups are 6 speeds. Next is look at the combination of accompanying h/c components, such as full exhaust, intake (LS6 or fast), and TUNE. You won't see an untuned or poorly tuned 450 rwhp setup.
As for your friends setup, he was untuned but the 224 cam is probably a little on the small side for 450, thunders estimate of 410/420 is probably more accurate.
I'm in the middle of my h/c swap right now and I'll pass some advice as to how I made my decision.
1. There are plenty of results available, look in the dyno and track time sections. Also look at signatures because many time people how power numbers and/or track numbers in their sig. along with specs.
2. Talk to people on the board and talk to vendors, there's nothing like firsthand knowledge. Also research tuning, will you do it yourself, bring the car somewhere, or have a mail order tune?
3. If you know people with h/c or even cam only setups get a ride in their car and pick their brain about the changes from stock (power, driveability, fuel mileage, whatever will help).
4. Determine your goals. Do you want absolute power? Do you want more power than stock but stock driveability? Do you want a certain track time?
5. What's your budget? There are plenty of different parts available that will work well together and fit many different budgets. Also, must everything be brand new or will used parts work for you? The classifieds here have been good to me for both used and new parts.
I know I listed talk to vendors and that's been your problem to this point. I'm surprised companies would understate the potential of an h/c setup but remember that everyone has their own vocabulary and if someone misunderstands what you're asking for that may affect their answer. For me seeing is believing and between the cars I've ridden in and the results I've seen I know 450 isn't out of the question at all. It'll just take a good combination of parts and a few bucks. Good luck.
As for your friends setup, he was untuned but the 224 cam is probably a little on the small side for 450, thunders estimate of 410/420 is probably more accurate.
I'm in the middle of my h/c swap right now and I'll pass some advice as to how I made my decision.
1. There are plenty of results available, look in the dyno and track time sections. Also look at signatures because many time people how power numbers and/or track numbers in their sig. along with specs.
2. Talk to people on the board and talk to vendors, there's nothing like firsthand knowledge. Also research tuning, will you do it yourself, bring the car somewhere, or have a mail order tune?
3. If you know people with h/c or even cam only setups get a ride in their car and pick their brain about the changes from stock (power, driveability, fuel mileage, whatever will help).
4. Determine your goals. Do you want absolute power? Do you want more power than stock but stock driveability? Do you want a certain track time?
5. What's your budget? There are plenty of different parts available that will work well together and fit many different budgets. Also, must everything be brand new or will used parts work for you? The classifieds here have been good to me for both used and new parts.
I know I listed talk to vendors and that's been your problem to this point. I'm surprised companies would understate the potential of an h/c setup but remember that everyone has their own vocabulary and if someone misunderstands what you're asking for that may affect their answer. For me seeing is believing and between the cars I've ridden in and the results I've seen I know 450 isn't out of the question at all. It'll just take a good combination of parts and a few bucks. Good luck.
02-12-2006, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Clean94Z
So I start pricing h/c kit from different companies and hear alot of good things and some not so good things. I have seen dyno numbers of people putting down over 400 rwhp with bolt-ons and a cam. But according to some a cam only can't make thoses numbers and h/c can't make 450/460.
To start I called HPE and the gentlemen told me with his H/C setup without butterfly cutting my pistons I could achieve 450/465 no problem. {They have thier 5.3 heads on sale for 1700.00}.
Then I called S.A.M. and the tell me 450 rwhp with all the bolt-ons and thier H/C easily.
So about this time I'm thinking awesome. I have a friend who is looking to sale a Thunder Racing H/C package he had on his car 3 years ago. TR224 /114 LSA and GTP heads for a good price. Now his car only put down 380 rwhp with all bolt-ons and no tuning. But he kept claiming it should have made 450. So I call Thunder Racing and ask the guy about this heads cam package and was shocked. He said that H/C package was good for 410/420 rwhp. I asked he if it was because the cam was small and he said no that is what h/c ls1 put down. I asked if I could put a larger cam in it to get 450 range and he said that was not possible. NO LYE he said that 450/460 rwhp from a H/C ls1 was not possible. I told him I have seen dynos of cam only cars making 410/420 and h/c making 450 plus. He just said NO.
CONFUSING RIGHT....
So I called Patroit Performance because I noticed they did alot of Futural cammed car to ask him what number to execept from H/C and he said 430/440 best case. That only cars that put down those 450 hp numbers have 100 hours of dyno time. And a cammed car with bolt-ons won't make over 400rwhp.
{ A part I left out was when I talked to HPE they gentlemen told me with a 402 H/C i could put down 530rwhp easily. Thunder told me that there is no way a H/C package will put down 450 plus because that is what there 422 make.}
My personally opinion is Thunder is a bit in the dark ages with the hole ls1 setup. Almost like they don't want to get with the technology.
So what do yo all think?
To start I called HPE and the gentlemen told me with his H/C setup without butterfly cutting my pistons I could achieve 450/465 no problem. {They have thier 5.3 heads on sale for 1700.00}.
Then I called S.A.M. and the tell me 450 rwhp with all the bolt-ons and thier H/C easily.
So about this time I'm thinking awesome. I have a friend who is looking to sale a Thunder Racing H/C package he had on his car 3 years ago. TR224 /114 LSA and GTP heads for a good price. Now his car only put down 380 rwhp with all bolt-ons and no tuning. But he kept claiming it should have made 450. So I call Thunder Racing and ask the guy about this heads cam package and was shocked. He said that H/C package was good for 410/420 rwhp. I asked he if it was because the cam was small and he said no that is what h/c ls1 put down. I asked if I could put a larger cam in it to get 450 range and he said that was not possible. NO LYE he said that 450/460 rwhp from a H/C ls1 was not possible. I told him I have seen dynos of cam only cars making 410/420 and h/c making 450 plus. He just said NO.
CONFUSING RIGHT....
So I called Patroit Performance because I noticed they did alot of Futural cammed car to ask him what number to execept from H/C and he said 430/440 best case. That only cars that put down those 450 hp numbers have 100 hours of dyno time. And a cammed car with bolt-ons won't make over 400rwhp.
{ A part I left out was when I talked to HPE they gentlemen told me with a 402 H/C i could put down 530rwhp easily. Thunder told me that there is no way a H/C package will put down 450 plus because that is what there 422 make.}
My personally opinion is Thunder is a bit in the dark ages with the hole ls1 setup. Almost like they don't want to get with the technology.
So what do yo all think?
02-13-2006, 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by cantdrv65
Eh.....Thunder THEMSELVES made 450+rwhp CAM ONLY!!!! You sure you dialed the right number?
Oh yes, it was the right number. I talked to him for about 20 minutes about what he thought that my friends setup would need to get the 410/420. Said he still sold that package.
02-13-2006, 06:54 AM
#7
Originally Posted by cantdrv65
Eh.....Thunder THEMSELVES made 450+rwhp CAM ONLY!!!! You sure you dialed the right number?
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02-13-2006, 07:51 AM
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Thunder racing is absolutely a very good company and there products are as good as all the other company's products. They are very knowledgable about these engines.
Just look at other peoples setups.Alot of people including me are gunnin to get 450RWHP out of there setups.
Infact my 230/224, (small cam) made 390HP with a decent tune and supporting bolt ons. A bigger cam could easily make 410.
Do your home work.
Just look at other peoples setups.Alot of people including me are gunnin to get 450RWHP out of there setups.
Infact my 230/224, (small cam) made 390HP with a decent tune and supporting bolt ons. A bigger cam could easily make 410.
Do your home work.
02-13-2006, 11:26 AM
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some body in this board has the "t-rex killer" with stock heads and full boltons and making 460ish , cant remember his name.
However, it all depends on the right combo and good tune .
However, it all depends on the right combo and good tune .
06-17-2006, 01:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Clean94Z
I called 4 places how much homework should I do.
It's all a matter of prespective.... I hope that's not true but he did state out the point that i'm running cats and stock manifolds... so we'll see.....
06-17-2006, 08:55 AM
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Sounds like a bunch of crap to me. I am surprised they told you that. My sig says it all. Yes I did have to flycut, so does my setup still count as an LS1 with over 450 rwhp?
06-18-2006, 11:42 AM
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We did 451 just last week in a cam only GTO (S-cam)... Putting heads on it is the next step of the process we're gonna be working on, and I plan on it making about 500 or so. I've done PLENTY of 450 rwhp heads/cam cars... You just have to have the right combination. Having a good set of heads and the right cam isn't everything. If you're running Pacesetters and an LS6 intake you're only going to get "so much" out of it. So long as you have the right supporting mods, you can definitely achieve the goals you're looking for.
Chuck @ HPE
281-448-1300
Chuck @ HPE
281-448-1300