darrensls1

I am going to buy either a FM13 cam or FM14 (on a 114 lsa) and the fast 90/90 combo. How much rwhp do you think I would be leaving on the table by going with Patriot LS6 S2 heads instead of AFR 205's on this setup?

darrensls1

Anyone have an educated guess? I know AFR's are better but I need to know if they are worth about 3x the cost of Patriots (my situation is not as simple as just the cost of purchasing the heads). For 10-15 rwhp difference I just go with Patriots. For 20+ I think I work out a way to go with AFR's.

Again this is behind a FM13 cam and fast 90/90. Thanks for any info you can give me.

orangeapeel

iTrader: (18)

For the ratio of horsepower and torque : money....I would say keep the Patriots in mind.

Patrick G

iTrader: (14)

I've consistently seen 15-20 rwhp difference on this board in the AFR's favor. I know they cost more, but think about these 2 things. How much more money are you going to have to spend in the future to get that 15-20 rwhp back? And how much driveability will you have to lose to do it? Remember, the airspeed of the AFR 205s is going to be much higher than the Patriots which means you'll have much better throttle response, better street manners and better fuel economy. I recently swapped my 205s to the better flowing 225s and while I gained 5 rwhp and 5 rwtq, I took a hit with street manners and fuel economy. Probably not a good trade off. The 205s are worth the money. Pay for the power now or you will be paying for it later.

JZ'sTA

iTrader: (23)

I agree with Patrick.
Plus there aren't 3 times as much.
2x. Yes but not 3x.

CKZ

iTrader: (1)

Here's a better question:

What about AFR 205 vs. Dart 205

I don't think anybody has that answer yet.

-Chris

Tony Mamo @ AFR

iTrader: (13)

AMEN Brother....LOL

Also, regarding costs, keep in mind the entire cost of the swap. ALL the parts, head gaskets, labor, chassis dyno tuning. Its not twice the cost in total....its actually a much smaller percentage than that, and assuming you don't take the plunge now, sure as the day is long you will be back looking for more power in 6 months or less. How much will it cost you then to find it??

And of course there are all the "street benefits" which Pat has touched on as well...to some that carries weight, to others they could care less, but it doesn't suck having the extra perks....thats for sure.

Bottom line is the Patriot represents a good dollar value and there are plenty of buyers for both products which each have their own niche in the marketplace....the question is which group do YOU fall into. If your the type thats always looking for more shortly after you get used to the last mod you made, you might as well step up now....it's cheaper in the long run.

Just my .02

Tony M.

AKRA

You get what you pay for!

My patriot 5.3 heads had three bad valves within 18 months. That's only 12,000 miles. Also when I had to pay to have the valves replaced I also had them reported . The before flow test showed that the the Patriots flowed less than stock heads at except the peak lift. After having them reported by the local head expert the number's where closer to the AFR heads. On the dyno I went from 360 hp to 406. I think the Patriots actually lowered my hp.

I think you will be money ahead to get the AFR heads.

Good luck,

Al

1QuickT-A

iTrader: (12)

Like everyone else has said.. Both heads have their place.. It just depends on what you want out of your setup.

darrensls1

Like I said, it's more then just the cost of the heads. I have neither the tools nor the experience to do the install. There is only one place local to me that is a F-body specialist. They have a policy that they don't install what they do not sell (as many places do). They only sell Patriot heads for the LS1. This leaves me in a position where I may have to drive 200+ miles, take a few unpaid days off work and stay in a hotel to get AFR's installed by a F-body specialist who does sell/install AFR's.

Like I said, it'll cost 3X as much if not more. But it sounds like it may be worth it anyway. Thanks for the input.

Gunnar@Patriot

iTrader: (20)

Our heads are built per customer order...one at a time. We install only the best components in each of our heads. When completed the heads are flow tested and sent out to our customers with a flow sheet. When looking through dyno numbers, you can find cars with basically every brand of head out there that may or may not have performed up to the expectations of the owners. In many cases this can be due to a bad combination, tuning issues, etc. The bottom line is that the heads we sell are a great product that will make power at a great price.

Update.................
We are currently working on the final tweaking of our Predator castings. After over a year of development, we have all the components that a truly great aftermarket casting should have. The casting itself is 355 for strength, massive material around the rocker arm stands, raised runners, super thick deck, raised valve cover rail... got it all. A renowned head porting specialist is putting the final touches on our various runners (3). Only the very best and most expensive parts will be used in this head -- only the proven best !
Sooo, at the end of the day, the customer wins again; great quality at a very affordable price.

A then one day along comes our "As Cast" version......

Z'mnypit

iTrader: (58)

Mmmmmm......... Predator.......

Im on my 2nd set of Patriot heads & havent had not one issue. I would highly recommend them to anyone. Give Gunnar a call & you'll see why.

AKRA

Go ahead. You might get lucky.

AKRA

Approximately 18 months after I had EPP install the Patriot 5.3 stage 2 heads on my car, I noticed the car wasn't running as strong. Also I noticed the valve train noise had changed. We removed the covers and then the Rocker to inspect the valves. Three of the valves had cracks probigating from the center. One of the valves was so bad that it looked like the center was ready break away and posibly drop into the motor.

I had Dave Hedges remove the Heads and take them to Jerry Arnold. Jerry is a local expert with a great reputation. I also sent the stock heads over that I had removed when I installed the Patriots.

These are the flow numbers:

LIFT----STOCK LS1-----PATRIOT 5.3 S2---J.A. Ported Patriots
---------Int-Exh-------Int-Exh---------Int-Exh
0.100---080-066-------066-123*-------086-075
0.200---146-113-------136-113--------153-116
0.300---207-140-------193-146--------215-150
0.400---232-161-------230-168--------258-168
0.500---242-175-------267-187--------282-190
0.600---250-182-------275-195--------292-205

You might notice that the Patriots at 0.100 lift was flowing opisite from the intake and exhaust. In order for Jerry Arnold to fix this problem he had to install larger valves. (2.055 and 1.600) He said he had a heck of a time fixing Patriots port job.

Also you might notice that the stock heads foowed better than the Patriot until the lift went to 0.500 and above.

When had the Patriot heads install the first time, I had the Lunati 224 Cam installed at the same time. My before and after was 335hp and 360hp. I should have seen more gain than that from just the cam.

Now I know why.

I would normally not make a point but I am tired of spending money and not getting what I paid for.

darrensls1

I want to thank everyone who replied here. I decided to pull the trigger on ETP 215 heads and I'm having a custom cam made. I don't know the exact specs for the cam. I imagine it'll be something like a 228/232 114 but I'll leave that up to the experts to decide what exact specs best suits my needs for these heads, 150 wetshot and 3500 stall.

Thanks again.

JZ'sTA

iTrader: (23)

First off I have NEVER been on the PP bandwagon, and I am sure gunner has read many of my posts knowing that I support his product but dont use his product. I have used 2 sets of PP heads on customers cars and weren't thrilled about the power, but at the same time will say the power and product is good for the price. To me a PP head is like a EVO. You wont see me in a EVO but you wont see me trash talking it either.
With that being said.....
I must stick up for PP here.
Aftermarket parts go bad. You are one of the very few that have had this problem with these heads. I haven't heard anyone with this problem in so long I had almost forgot about it. Now it did happen and you have every right to hate patroit's products. BUT... to everyone that has no experoence with PP please be aware that this is very rare. I dont know how old these heads are but I will bet you my house that Patroits worst head outflows the stock LS1 head easily. That is the reason Patroit is in business.
Also I would like to add that I have NEVER seen a stock LS1 head go anywhere near 250 cfm's at any lift. (I have seen 3 flow sheets of stock heads in person)
Again my post is not to bash you in anyway. You had a negative experience so you have every right to post about it and be upset about it. I only post this for the newby's so they dont form a oponion based on 1 users experience.

jrp

iTrader: (16)

**** the peak lift, i've never seen a stock ls1 head put out those low and mid lift numbers; 207 @ .300

AKRA

Those are the numbers from my stock LS1 heads. Let me see the numbers from the flow of your stock heads. I'm showing actual results. You are the one talking B.S.

This is a post talking about buying buget heads verses buy good heads. Im just leting everyone know the experiance I had going the buget rought.

After hering what I went though and you buy the cheap heads anyway, don't cry to loud if two years later you are spending a few more thawsand dollars for the same thing you have already paid for once.

Good luck!

Al

Bo White

iTrader: (59)

I have seen a couple of stock LS1 heads on a 1020 bench with clay radius. The most Ive seen is 23x @ .600 on a 241 casting. Now I have seen abunch of LS6 243 castings go that or a little better stock.

cantdrv65

iTrader: (3)

I can vouch for TSP PRC LS6 heads. Great budget product...Are they as good as an MTI handported Ls6 or AFR aftermarket casting probably not. It depends how much you want and are willing to part with dollar wise. If I was going to spend mega bucks I would have went with the ET performance heads. That is if I could actually get a set.