AFR's or Dart's?
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AFR's or Dart's? Ok here is my plan, major power on the strip!!! I dont car if my car has no top end or anything like that. I want to run fast in the 1/4. Im looking in to heads and dont know which ones to go with, as in my sig i have the MS3 (not yet installed) so i need something that works well with that! I was looking at AFR's 225cc but they seem too pricey. but I dont know if their 205cc head would be good enough so i looked into the dart 225's and they are much much cheaper, why? Are they just as good? what head would be good for my application?
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TECH Apprentice
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 318
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From: Jupiter, Florida
Damn both yall kno what ur talkin bout, now im lost id ont know what to do???
Matt from outlaw what are the heads you are talking about? website or anything like that would be kool.
Matt from outlaw what are the heads you are talking about? website or anything like that would be kool.
Launching!
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 202
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From: nowhere in particular
Originally Posted by Cbrakllr
Damn both yall kno what ur talkin bout, now im lost id ont know what to do???
Matt from outlaw what are the heads you are talking about? website or anything like that would be kool.
Matt from outlaw what are the heads you are talking about? website or anything like that would be kool.
http://www.texas-speed.com/shop/item...d=649&catid=40
Dollar wise they are a heck of a bargain, you could get a 90/90 set up with the money you saved! Personally haven't seen anything quantifying the performance of the DARTS, either size. That being said AFR's have been the pinnacle LS1 performance head that have stock valve train geometry (valve angle, rocker arm stand configuration). It's all in how much you want to spend, is 400 rwhp OK? Or, did you have 450+ as your goal.........
I am not trying to start a flame war here as we have seen both heads put out great numbers, both on the dyno and at the strip. I'm am all about making the most power with the least amount of money. The new program that Texas Speed has been using for their heads is awesome. You tell me which is better.
Intake PRCs AFRs
.200" 149 140
.300" 205 200
.400" 255 251
.500" 287 281
.600" 307 298
.625" 310 N/A
Intake PRCs AFRs
.200" 149 140
.300" 205 200
.400" 255 251
.500" 287 281
.600" 307 298
.625" 310 N/A
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What about max 346 ci performance? There does not appear to be an "end all" solution to our head dilema. What about a rectangle port (LS7ish) with an intake that will fit the gen III motors?
Originally Posted by gollum
The as cast Darts combustion chambers have lots of sharp edges that need to be CNC'd and hand polished before bolting on.
On The Tree
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 102
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From: Suburbs of Detroit
Sharp edges
Originally Posted by gollum
The as cast Darts combustion chambers have lots of sharp edges that need to be CNC'd and hand polished before bolting on.
JC
Gonna throw in my three cents here...
First penny.....Don't bother comparing advertised flow numbers from different manufacturers (there's about 100 threads about that situation).
Second penny.....There's ALOT more to making power than purely looking at flow data (even if it is off of the same bench and can then be used to compare). Again....many threads touch on this subject...port volume, proper cross-sectional area, and airspeed all pay big dividends in cylinder fill and reversion dampening.
Third penny.....The answer to your question lies in doing some research. Spend the time digging around the dyno section and look to see which independent numbers are always strong (non-shop cars and leg humpers excluded as well).
Then pretend they all cost the same and make a determination based on the research youve acquired. Then consider that cylinder head selection is the most important decision you will make that will effect your end results with the most impact (good or bad). Spending more money for a better head pays for itself in the long run.....Ultimately you will always come back looking for what you left under the table in your first go around. How many threads like THAT have you seen??
BTW....The Dart piece is an excellent head for the money and offers a stronger casting as well, but comparing an as cast head to a fully CNC ported extremely optimized AFR is kind of silly if your looking for ALL the money out of a particular combo.
Feel free to contact me at AFR if you have any questions....
Thanks,
Tony Mamo
(818)890-0616 Ext. 109
First penny.....Don't bother comparing advertised flow numbers from different manufacturers (there's about 100 threads about that situation).
Second penny.....There's ALOT more to making power than purely looking at flow data (even if it is off of the same bench and can then be used to compare). Again....many threads touch on this subject...port volume, proper cross-sectional area, and airspeed all pay big dividends in cylinder fill and reversion dampening.
Third penny.....The answer to your question lies in doing some research. Spend the time digging around the dyno section and look to see which independent numbers are always strong (non-shop cars and leg humpers excluded as well).
Then pretend they all cost the same and make a determination based on the research youve acquired. Then consider that cylinder head selection is the most important decision you will make that will effect your end results with the most impact (good or bad). Spending more money for a better head pays for itself in the long run.....Ultimately you will always come back looking for what you left under the table in your first go around. How many threads like THAT have you seen??
BTW....The Dart piece is an excellent head for the money and offers a stronger casting as well, but comparing an as cast head to a fully CNC ported extremely optimized AFR is kind of silly if your looking for ALL the money out of a particular combo.
Feel free to contact me at AFR if you have any questions....
Thanks,
Tony Mamo
(818)890-0616 Ext. 109
Originally Posted by Dart331Stroker
IN particular what sharp edges are you refering to? I have been over these heads alot, and dont see any "sharp" edges. If you are refering to the sharp angles and the sharp angle where the seats meet, there is a reason for that. You would have to see how the fuel shears off the seats during the wet flow bench testing to understand.
JC
JC
I also noticed with the 205 versions that the intake valve seats appeared to be cut deaper than the exhaust seats and intake valves are shorter that the exhaust valves. Was this done to allow more valve free drop @ TDC?
What is the free drop ( 205 vs. 225 using OEM gasket)?
Last edited by gollum; Apr 11, 2006 at 12:00 PM.
On The Tree
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 102
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From: Suburbs of Detroit
Hot spots
Originally Posted by gollum
What about hot spots in the combustion chamber? Wouldn't the sharp area between the seats lead to detonation/pre ignition?
When your CNC versions are released will this area will be deburred and smoothed?
When your CNC versions are released will this area will be deburred and smoothed?
Thanks
JC
Good post Tony but lets look at the other side of the third coin for a second 
Fist off, as you said, comparing a 'budget' as-cast head to fully CNC head really isnt fair - cant argue that.
But lets say someone was doing a budget nitrous build, they might be inclined to think that the 1000.00 or so difference can pay for a cam and nitrous kit. Or a 'budget' turbo guy can spend the extra 1000.00 on an BOV and an intercooler. While its true the as-cast dart would most likely fall short of the AFR n/a, with nitrous or a turbo that 10-20rwhp difference might not mean so much anymore if one can achieve their HP goals overall.
Biggest mistake is simply assuming just because you use an AFR, ET or any other 'top shelf' cylinder head you are guaranteed big power without the proper supporting pieces, thats a bigger mistake then choosing the wrong head over others. There is a big enough market where no one should be complaining, since supply is always a probelm it appears that all aftermarket LSx heads are selling well.
FWIW I picked the Darts because they were cheap, I am cheap - I'll admit it. But I also have had good luck with Dart products over the years and just assumed they wouldnt turn out a piece of junk. I paid for them just like anyone else (actually I paid more) and they suit my needs just fine. If I had an unlimited budget I would have a set of AFR 225s or ETs on the car, but then again if I had an unlimited budget I would have a 402 and twin T67s instead of a 346 and a D1SC also
Fist off, as you said, comparing a 'budget' as-cast head to fully CNC head really isnt fair - cant argue that.
But lets say someone was doing a budget nitrous build, they might be inclined to think that the 1000.00 or so difference can pay for a cam and nitrous kit. Or a 'budget' turbo guy can spend the extra 1000.00 on an BOV and an intercooler. While its true the as-cast dart would most likely fall short of the AFR n/a, with nitrous or a turbo that 10-20rwhp difference might not mean so much anymore if one can achieve their HP goals overall.
Biggest mistake is simply assuming just because you use an AFR, ET or any other 'top shelf' cylinder head you are guaranteed big power without the proper supporting pieces, thats a bigger mistake then choosing the wrong head over others. There is a big enough market where no one should be complaining, since supply is always a probelm it appears that all aftermarket LSx heads are selling well.
FWIW I picked the Darts because they were cheap, I am cheap - I'll admit it. But I also have had good luck with Dart products over the years and just assumed they wouldnt turn out a piece of junk. I paid for them just like anyone else (actually I paid more) and they suit my needs just fine. If I had an unlimited budget I would have a set of AFR 225s or ETs on the car, but then again if I had an unlimited budget I would have a 402 and twin T67s instead of a 346 and a D1SC also
Originally Posted by Tony Mamo @ AFR
Gonna throw in my three cents here...
First penny.....Don't bother comparing advertised flow numbers from different manufacturers (there's about 100 threads about that situation).
Second penny.....There's ALOT more to making power than purely looking at flow data (even if it is off of the same bench and can then be used to compare). Again....many threads touch on this subject...port volume, proper cross-sectional area, and airspeed all pay big dividends in cylinder fill and reversion dampening.
Third penny.....The answer to your question lies in doing some research. Spend the time digging around the dyno section and look to see which independent numbers are always strong (non-shop cars and leg humpers excluded as well).
Then pretend they all cost the same and make a determination based on the research youve acquired. Then consider that cylinder head selection is the most important decision you will make that will effect your end results with the most impact (good or bad). Spending more money for a better head pays for itself in the long run.....Ultimately you will always come back looking for what you left under the table in your first go around. How many threads like THAT have you seen??
BTW....The Dart piece is an excellent head for the money and offers a stronger casting as well, but comparing an as cast head to a fully CNC ported extremely optimized AFR is kind of silly if your looking for ALL the money out of a particular combo.
Feel free to contact me at AFR if you have any questions....
Thanks,
Tony Mamo
(818)890-0616 Ext. 109
First penny.....Don't bother comparing advertised flow numbers from different manufacturers (there's about 100 threads about that situation).
Second penny.....There's ALOT more to making power than purely looking at flow data (even if it is off of the same bench and can then be used to compare). Again....many threads touch on this subject...port volume, proper cross-sectional area, and airspeed all pay big dividends in cylinder fill and reversion dampening.
Third penny.....The answer to your question lies in doing some research. Spend the time digging around the dyno section and look to see which independent numbers are always strong (non-shop cars and leg humpers excluded as well).
Then pretend they all cost the same and make a determination based on the research youve acquired. Then consider that cylinder head selection is the most important decision you will make that will effect your end results with the most impact (good or bad). Spending more money for a better head pays for itself in the long run.....Ultimately you will always come back looking for what you left under the table in your first go around. How many threads like THAT have you seen??
BTW....The Dart piece is an excellent head for the money and offers a stronger casting as well, but comparing an as cast head to a fully CNC ported extremely optimized AFR is kind of silly if your looking for ALL the money out of a particular combo.
Feel free to contact me at AFR if you have any questions....
Thanks,
Tony Mamo
(818)890-0616 Ext. 109
Originally Posted by 4thGenCamaro
I am not trying to start a flame war here as we have seen both heads put out great numbers, both on the dyno and at the strip. I'm am all about making the most power with the least amount of money. The new program that Texas Speed has been using for their heads is awesome. You tell me which is better.
Intake PRCs AFRs
.200" 149 140
.300" 205 200
.400" 255 251
.500" 287 281
.600" 307 298
.625" 310 N/A
Intake PRCs AFRs
.200" 149 140
.300" 205 200
.400" 255 251
.500" 287 281
.600" 307 298
.625" 310 N/A
If you recall, the AFR 205s were met with a lot of skepticism because their numbers were on average 15-20 rwhp than other popular heads on the market...even after you sifted out the shop cars and leg humpers. The reasons the AFRs exceeded the norm went way beyond the flow numbers alone. The port velocity (gives more power under the curve), the combustion chamber shape (gives a more efficient burn) and complete execution of the parts could have only been accomplished with a clean sheet design. Porting a factory 243 casting has limitations in overall power and strength.
These are areas where the Dart and AFR castings are worth their extra entry fee. You get what you pay for. Now as far as Darts vs. AFRs go, I would have to say that until Dart brings their fully CNC'd casting to the marketplace, they will not have a product that is ready to beat AFR.
__________________
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2022 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 S&B CAI, Corsa catback.
2023 Corvette 3LT Z51 soon to be modified.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2022 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 S&B CAI, Corsa catback.
2023 Corvette 3LT Z51 soon to be modified.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
11 Second Club
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
go darts all the way i have seen both the heads and i got the dart and the darts flowed 315 out of the box on a low reading bench. (225) Richard maskins (the owner of dart) said he has got people pulling off ls6 ported heads and 5.3 ported heads and putting his unported heads on out of the box and going quicker.
Originally Posted by kp
Good post Tony but lets look at the other side of the third coin for a second .....If I had an unlimited budget I would have a set of AFR 225s or ETs on the car, but then again if I had an unlimited budget I would have a 402 and twin T67s instead of a 346 and a D1SC also
.....If I had an unlimited budget I would have a set of AFR 225s or ETs on the car, but then again if I had an unlimited budget I would have a 402 and twin T67s instead of a 346 and a D1SC also It's all good....there is plenty of market share to go around and more than enough Gen III business to keep all the quality cylinder head companies thriving.
Tony M.
Last edited by Tony Mamo @ AFR; Apr 11, 2006 at 12:25 PM.
Like Kevin said, I guess I am just cheap. For the extra $1000 or so I saved from going with the Darts or PRCs I could do something else to make up for the 15-20 hp gain. AFR makes a great clyinder head, but there are better options out there for the budget friendly racer. That is all I was trying to say. Good luck with whatever head company you decide to go with.