Will a 110 LSA fit...?
04-17-2006, 04:04 PM
#21
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Originally Posted by BLACKNREDSS
o believe me i know he knows a lot, hes the reason i went with the 228R instead of MS3 
tourque is where its at, alls i was sayin is i would rather have a 112 LSA for a daily driver, just my opinion, both will lope mean, im sure hed be plenty happy with either 
tourque is where its at, alls i was sayin is i would rather have a 112 LSA for a daily driver, just my opinion, both will lope mean, im sure hed be plenty happy with either I also agree with you on the torque. Peak horspower means nothing to me unless you want to impress the babes at dyno day
I like the midrange TORQUE the best and those low ET's at the track!!! Which is exactly why I went with a 408...
04-17-2006, 04:07 PM
#22
Just for reference: ASA "RACING CAM" specs are 226/236 @.050, 110LSA, .525 lift. This class is mostly stock LS1 engine and open exhaust.
http://www.sdpc2000.com/catalog/1981...r-Camshaft.htm
http://www.sdpc2000.com/catalog/1981...r-Camshaft.htm
04-17-2006, 04:18 PM
#23
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Well I deinately dont HAVE to have the 110. Its just gonna save me $50. I don really care much about peak power but I would like to get up over 400. Both the 110 LSA cam and the G5X3 will do that so i just wanna know which one is gonna have better mid range power. I have full bolt-ons and 4.10's in an M6 so Im thinkin drivability wont be much of a concern.
04-17-2006, 04:24 PM
#25
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Originally Posted by nokeman
Basically, if you had to choose between the two, which one would you choose.
04-17-2006, 04:25 PM
#26
Guys, don't get your feelings hurt. Nokeman asked if the 110LSA would fit. I said yes. Some of you agreed it would fit, but recommended a wider LSA without any reasoning as to why a 112LSA would be better. From my 8 years of swapping cams in LS1s, I've noted some pretty solid consistencies:
1. On a 346 with an LS6 or FAST intake, there are diminishing returns in hp closing your intake valve later than 45 degrees ABDC. You can do it, but you start trading off dynamic compression for higher rpm. The tuned runner length of the intake manifold will tend to force a 4800 rpm torque peak and 6300 hp peak. Cheating that by closing the intake valve later becomes counter productive past 50 degrees ABDC.
2. You want your dyanmic compression at or above 8.5:1. Big duration, wide LSA cams are notorious for giving really low dynamic compression.
3. You want your overlap centered over TDC if at all possible. If you advance the cam, you run the risk of making the overlap exhaust-biased, meaning the motor will run out of breath quicker after peak power. Overlap biased more to the intake side (which comes from little to no advance) will allow the motor to rev better past peak hp.
4. When running ported heads, you want to get the highest lift with the most stable lobe you can find. Comp LSK lobes are very nice in this regard.
Keeping all these factors in mind, most savvy cam grinders who try to keep the IVC between 42 and 46 degrees ABDC, try to keep their DCR at or above 8.5:1, and try to keep the overlap centered over TDC will tend to run cams with narrower LSAs to achieve all 3 goals. Try to do it with durations in the 230s and 240s with LSAs in the 112s and 114s. It's not going to happen. I'm not talking out of my *** when I recommend cams with 110LSAs. Some 110LSA cams work best, some 114LSA cams work best...but for a 234/238 duration cam, the 110LSA will do a better job of hitting the IVC, DCR, and overlap criteria. Just install it at 108 ICL.
1. On a 346 with an LS6 or FAST intake, there are diminishing returns in hp closing your intake valve later than 45 degrees ABDC. You can do it, but you start trading off dynamic compression for higher rpm. The tuned runner length of the intake manifold will tend to force a 4800 rpm torque peak and 6300 hp peak. Cheating that by closing the intake valve later becomes counter productive past 50 degrees ABDC.
2. You want your dyanmic compression at or above 8.5:1. Big duration, wide LSA cams are notorious for giving really low dynamic compression.
3. You want your overlap centered over TDC if at all possible. If you advance the cam, you run the risk of making the overlap exhaust-biased, meaning the motor will run out of breath quicker after peak power. Overlap biased more to the intake side (which comes from little to no advance) will allow the motor to rev better past peak hp.
4. When running ported heads, you want to get the highest lift with the most stable lobe you can find. Comp LSK lobes are very nice in this regard.
Keeping all these factors in mind, most savvy cam grinders who try to keep the IVC between 42 and 46 degrees ABDC, try to keep their DCR at or above 8.5:1, and try to keep the overlap centered over TDC will tend to run cams with narrower LSAs to achieve all 3 goals. Try to do it with durations in the 230s and 240s with LSAs in the 112s and 114s. It's not going to happen. I'm not talking out of my *** when I recommend cams with 110LSAs. Some 110LSA cams work best, some 114LSA cams work best...but for a 234/238 duration cam, the 110LSA will do a better job of hitting the IVC, DCR, and overlap criteria. Just install it at 108 ICL.
__________________
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2018 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 Pat G tuned.
LS1,LS2,LS3,LS7,LT1 Custom Camshaft Specialist For custom camshaft help press here.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2018 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 Pat G tuned.
LS1,LS2,LS3,LS7,LT1 Custom Camshaft Specialist For custom camshaft help press here.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
04-17-2006, 04:25 PM
#27
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In case your wondering, here is what a 112 lsa cam sounds like (my old cam):
http://media.putfile.com/G5-cam
http://media.putfile.com/G5-cam
04-17-2006, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Patrick G
Guys, don't get your feelings hurt. Nokeman asked if the 110LSA would fit. I said yes. Some of you agreed it would fit, but recommended a wider LSA without any reasoning as to why a 112LSA would be better. From my 8 years of swapping cams in LS1s, I've noted some pretty solid consistencies:
1. On a 346 with an LS6 or FAST intake, there are diminishing returns in hp closing your intake valve later than 45 degrees ABDC. You can do it, but you start trading off dynamic compression for higher rpm. The tuned runner length of the intake manifold will tend to force a 4800 rpm torque peak and 6300 hp peak. Cheating that by closing the intake valve later becomes counter productive past 50 degrees ABDC.
2. You want your dyanmic compression at or above 8.5:1. Big duration, wide LSA cams are notorious for giving really low dynamic compression.
3. You want your overlap centered over TDC if at all possible. If you advance the cam, you run the risk of making the overlap exhaust-biased, meaning the motor will run out of breath quicker after peak power. Overlap biased more to the intake side (which comes from little to no advance) will allow the motor to rev better past peak hp.
4. When running ported heads, you want to get the highest lift with the most stable lobe you can find. Comp LSK lobes are very nice in this regard.
Keeping all these factors in mind, most savvy cam grinders who try to keep the IVC between 42 and 46 degrees ABDC, try to keep their DCR at or above 8.5:1, and try to keep the overlap centered over TDC will tend to run cams with narrower LSAs to achieve all 3 goals. Try to do it with durations in the 230s and 240s with LSAs in the 112s and 114s. It's not going to happen. I'm not talking out of my *** when I recommend cams with 110LSAs. Some 110LSA cams work best, some 114LSA cams work best...but for a 234/238 duration cam, the 110LSA will do a better job of hitting the IVC, DCR, and overlap criteria. Just install it at 108 ICL.
1. On a 346 with an LS6 or FAST intake, there are diminishing returns in hp closing your intake valve later than 45 degrees ABDC. You can do it, but you start trading off dynamic compression for higher rpm. The tuned runner length of the intake manifold will tend to force a 4800 rpm torque peak and 6300 hp peak. Cheating that by closing the intake valve later becomes counter productive past 50 degrees ABDC.
2. You want your dyanmic compression at or above 8.5:1. Big duration, wide LSA cams are notorious for giving really low dynamic compression.
3. You want your overlap centered over TDC if at all possible. If you advance the cam, you run the risk of making the overlap exhaust-biased, meaning the motor will run out of breath quicker after peak power. Overlap biased more to the intake side (which comes from little to no advance) will allow the motor to rev better past peak hp.
4. When running ported heads, you want to get the highest lift with the most stable lobe you can find. Comp LSK lobes are very nice in this regard.
Keeping all these factors in mind, most savvy cam grinders who try to keep the IVC between 42 and 46 degrees ABDC, try to keep their DCR at or above 8.5:1, and try to keep the overlap centered over TDC will tend to run cams with narrower LSAs to achieve all 3 goals. Try to do it with durations in the 230s and 240s with LSAs in the 112s and 114s. It's not going to happen. I'm not talking out of my *** when I recommend cams with 110LSAs. Some 110LSA cams work best, some 114LSA cams work best...but for a 234/238 duration cam, the 110LSA will do a better job of hitting the IVC, DCR, and overlap criteria. Just install it at 108 ICL.
Good luck on your cam selection...
04-17-2006, 05:01 PM
#31
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Wow Patrick you have an enormous wealth of information. I think that pretty much secured my decision on the 234/238 110LSA cam. Thats for that incredible info!!
04-17-2006, 06:31 PM
#32
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Not to be devils advocate, and I respect the knowledge in this thread, BUT check out this little company called MTI and their grinds:
http://www.motorsporttech.com/fbody_engine01.asp
Not one of their grinds goes below 112* and I doubt you will get a recommendation from them to do so on a nearly stock motor.
I respect what MTI has to offer and what they have to say. They do this day in and day out for a living and are very good at it. They've made magazine front pages with their work. I think that deserves a little more credibility than us internet racers....
http://www.motorsporttech.com/fbody_engine01.asp
Not one of their grinds goes below 112* and I doubt you will get a recommendation from them to do so on a nearly stock motor.
I respect what MTI has to offer and what they have to say. They do this day in and day out for a living and are very good at it. They've made magazine front pages with their work. I think that deserves a little more credibility than us internet racers....
04-17-2006, 06:49 PM
#33
Why are most all aftermarket LS1 cams ground with 112-114LSA? Read below:
Originally Posted by J-Rod
Easy one. There are actually a couple of answers.
Because most cam grinders do it by default
Most cams come ground +4 because people always put too much cam in their car. The +4 helps to overcome the car being "overcammed" and helps wake up what would otherwise be a "soggy" bottom end. +4 is just what most of the mfg's (Comp and Crane) do by default, thus it trickled into most "shop" cams. People think they need some super huge cam in their cars. Mfg's realized to save folks from their own mistake thought that "bigger must be better". So, they adance the cams to help try and pick up the bottom end of what would be pig without it. Hence the reason why properly selected events with more moderate lobes will often make less peak, but have more average power, and why a 410-415RWHP car can beat a 450RWHP car...
When you see a cam come in +0 or ground -3 or something like that, it usually means someone actually put some thought into what they were doing and why. Its not to say +4 is bad, its just folks seem to get hung up on a certain number and not the events behind them.
Simply put, advancing a cam makes it more exhaust bias relative to TDC. Retarding a cam makes it more intake bias relative to TDC.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/advanced-engineering-tech/396093-what-affect-does-advance-ground-into-cam-have.html
Because most cam grinders do it by default
Most cams come ground +4 because people always put too much cam in their car. The +4 helps to overcome the car being "overcammed" and helps wake up what would otherwise be a "soggy" bottom end. +4 is just what most of the mfg's (Comp and Crane) do by default, thus it trickled into most "shop" cams. People think they need some super huge cam in their cars. Mfg's realized to save folks from their own mistake thought that "bigger must be better". So, they adance the cams to help try and pick up the bottom end of what would be pig without it. Hence the reason why properly selected events with more moderate lobes will often make less peak, but have more average power, and why a 410-415RWHP car can beat a 450RWHP car...
When you see a cam come in +0 or ground -3 or something like that, it usually means someone actually put some thought into what they were doing and why. Its not to say +4 is bad, its just folks seem to get hung up on a certain number and not the events behind them.
Simply put, advancing a cam makes it more exhaust bias relative to TDC. Retarding a cam makes it more intake bias relative to TDC.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/advanced-engineering-tech/396093-what-affect-does-advance-ground-into-cam-have.html
04-17-2006, 06:55 PM
#34
Originally Posted by nokeman
So Ive got one person telling me that it will hit the pistons and ive got one person telling me it will fit just fine. Now im just more confused but i would think that if a trex would fit than this would since is a little smaller...we a lot smaller actually.
04-17-2006, 07:05 PM
#35
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Originally Posted by Patrick G
Why would you make a broad statement like that? In many cases, a 110LSA cam will be superior to a 112LSA cam. Depends on the needs of the enthusiast. For more area under the curve, the 110LSA in that duration range will be much better suited for providing solid area under the curve than a 112LSA cam of the same duration. Think before you write.
04-19-2006, 02:11 PM
#40
Originally Posted by nokeman
How much low end will I be givving up if I go with the 108 instead of the 106 ICL? Will it make THAT much of a difference?