Just In ! Patriot Ls6 heads! pics..flow #'s
05-03-2006, 11:42 AM
#21
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Originally Posted by 98Z28MASS
So how would these compare in price to the prc's? Im looking at both these heads and the stage 1 prc ls6 heads with the cam in my sig. What would be a better setup? Thansk and any info would be greatly appreciate guys. BTW the lift on my cam is .600+
i would call each place that sells budget ls6 heads..livernois,tsp, and patriot and deside for yourself based on their customer service and sales technique.
Thats what i did...i ended up buying from Gunner at patriot.
05-03-2006, 11:52 AM
#22
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Originally Posted by Xtnct00WS6
Let me clarify this cause now I'm confused...
Patriot is handfinishing all the 243 heads now? Even the intake port? Even after they've gotten out of the CNC machine? That wasn't an extra option you paid for? I was having people recommend against taking cnc lines out of the intake port...
Patriot is handfinishing all the 243 heads now? Even the intake port? Even after they've gotten out of the CNC machine? That wasn't an extra option you paid for? I was having people recommend against taking cnc lines out of the intake port...
05-03-2006, 12:00 PM
#23
Originally Posted by HartAttack
It part of the normal process from what i was told...and it happens after they cnc the heads. I imagine its intails polishing the outside of the exhaust port area to look shiny, and they also resurface the bottom of the head and clean it to look good. The majority of the porting done inside has the cnc lines in it...some areas it doesnt it looks more of a abrasize type port area like it was done by hand. thats all i can tell ya.
It looks like the intake is hand ported, but I guess not. Good luck on the install, I'm in the middle of one myself right now.
05-03-2006, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by PREDATOR-Z
We need to get off this bigger/more/louder/taller/higher, makes my motor faster attidude.
It is all about "THE RIGHT MATCHING COMBINATION"
It is all about "THE RIGHT MATCHING COMBINATION"
Agreed
05-03-2006, 12:42 PM
#25
Originally Posted by Bo White
I just got finished hand finishing a set of 6.0 heads last week that wasnt done that indepth but then again they new I would be finishin them off. They are abunch of good guys up there and they really have the customers needs at heart on every order. I was up there the other day and Gunnar was talkin some guy out of some parts that were way off from what he needed for his application- saved the guy some money and aggrevation in the long run for sure 
05-03-2006, 02:45 PM
#28
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Originally Posted by HartAttack
Bo, are you still hand finishing heads then?
05-04-2006, 12:34 PM
#29
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Originally Posted by PREDATOR-Z
Lifts at .2/.3/.4 are more important than .5/.6 for street driven motors.
You guys put too much emphasis on flow #s and forget other factors like swirl and velocity.
you need to look at what is inside the box, not just the label on the outside.
I see the same trend regarding cams, poeple look at peak Hp numbers and hail this cam, that cam, while all along it is the power under the curve which will give you the performance wished for. This is why most overcam their motors.
We need to get off this bigger/more/louder/taller/higher, makes my motor faster attidude.
It is all about "THE RIGHT MATCHING COMBINATION"
You guys put too much emphasis on flow #s and forget other factors like swirl and velocity.
you need to look at what is inside the box, not just the label on the outside.
I see the same trend regarding cams, poeple look at peak Hp numbers and hail this cam, that cam, while all along it is the power under the curve which will give you the performance wished for. This is why most overcam their motors.
We need to get off this bigger/more/louder/taller/higher, makes my motor faster attidude.
It is all about "THE RIGHT MATCHING COMBINATION"
Bigger and badder doesn't mean you're going to go any faster. But picking a head that has better .1, .2, and .3 numbers then loses out at .400 to the other head and above and goes static at .600 is simply retarded.
BTW, all these heads are pretty similar and you're splitting hairs. Good numbers
05-04-2006, 12:55 PM
#30
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Originally Posted by Nate_Taufer
Reread my post. I said that you can't compare lifts BELOW .4" (i.e. .300 and less) as there are too many variations amongst benches and you can't accurately base your comparison off of these numbers. Also I never said that bigger heads were better. I stated that I could give a **** if I give up 5 cfm at .3 to have a head that doesnt back up at .650" vs a head that goes static at .600 lift. The head that doesnt back up will consistently make more power and have a better torque curve too.
Bigger and badder doesn't mean you're going to go any faster. But picking a head that has better .1, .2, and .3 numbers then loses out at .400 to the other head and above and goes static at .600 is simply retarded.
BTW, all these heads are pretty similar and you're splitting hairs. Good numbers
Bigger and badder doesn't mean you're going to go any faster. But picking a head that has better .1, .2, and .3 numbers then loses out at .400 to the other head and above and goes static at .600 is simply retarded.
BTW, all these heads are pretty similar and you're splitting hairs. Good numbers
FYI, when you see better flow at .3/.4/.(4.5), that is an indication that velocity and swirl is pretty good in that head. If a 227 cfm int. head is within 3 cfm at .600 VS a 235 cfm int., that also should tell you something.
a .650 flowing head is pointless if your cam lifts are only .590
That is what "Matching Combo Means".
And before you call poeple names (since I can judge by your finesse in expression), you read carefuly, I also said on a STREET head; which is what all these good budget heads are.
05-04-2006, 01:16 PM
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FYI, when you see better flow at .3/.4/.(4.5), that is an indication that velocity and swirl is pretty good in that head. If a 227 cfm int. head is within 3 cfm at .600 VS a 235 cfm int., that also should tell you something.
a .650 flowing head is pointless if your cam lifts are only .590
That is what "Matching Combo Means".
a .650 flowing head is pointless if your cam lifts are only .590
That is what "Matching Combo Means".
05-04-2006, 01:18 PM
#32
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Originally Posted by Nate_Taufer
Bigger and badder doesn't mean you're going to go any faster. But picking a head that has better .1, .2, and .3 numbers then loses out at .400 to the other head and above and goes static at .600 is simply retarded.
It looks like you start saying that bigger and badder isnt better...and then it looks like you start to say the low lift is good...like these heads have..but then you say going static at .600 is retarded?? please ilaborate this more for me please.
05-04-2006, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by PREDATOR-Z
FYI, when you see better flow at .3/.4/.(4.5), that is an indication that velocity and swirl is pretty good in that head. If a 227 cfm int. head is within 3 cfm at .600 VS a 235 cfm int., that also should tell you something.
Getting flow numbers from a flow-bench isn't the same at all as flow in a running engine.
The velocity in the port will be proportional to the height you lift the valve on the flow-bench while testing.
Good low-lift numbers on the bench will NOT mean high velocity in the port (either on the bench or a running engine), or anything at all to do with swirl. They are completely unrelated.
You are suggesting that when the flow-bench shows good low-lift numbers, that suggests a high velocity port and/or good swirl. I think this is completely wrong, and an assumption like that simply cannot be made.
05-04-2006, 02:04 PM
#34
Originally Posted by cantdrv65
Probably not going to be a whole world of difference between those three heads or the higher dollar AFR,Dart, and ET castings for that matter. You cant beat the CNCd LS6 heads for the bang for buck....
05-04-2006, 02:33 PM
#35
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Originally Posted by white2001s10
I don't agree with you there on two points.
Getting flow numbers from a flow-bench isn't the same at all as flow in a running engine.
The velocity in the port will be proportional to the height you lift the valve on the flow-bench while testing.
Good low-lift numbers on the bench will NOT mean high velocity in the port (either on the bench or a running engine), or anything at all to do with swirl. They are completely unrelated.
You are suggesting that when the flow-bench shows good low-lift numbers, that suggests a high velocity port and/or good swirl. I think this is completely wrong, and an assumption like that simply cannot be made.
Getting flow numbers from a flow-bench isn't the same at all as flow in a running engine.
The velocity in the port will be proportional to the height you lift the valve on the flow-bench while testing.
Good low-lift numbers on the bench will NOT mean high velocity in the port (either on the bench or a running engine), or anything at all to do with swirl. They are completely unrelated.
You are suggesting that when the flow-bench shows good low-lift numbers, that suggests a high velocity port and/or good swirl. I think this is completely wrong, and an assumption like that simply cannot be made.
The valve lift curve hits the mid-lift numbers such as 0.300- to 0.400-inch twice in each valve lift curve while peak lift is only achieved once per cycle. Judging a cylinder head by its mid-lift flow potential can be beneficial in choosing the right cylinder head for a street engine.
Also regarding velocity, from what I've seen around, port shape and size are major contributors and when you see a smaller CC runner head making more flow in mid lifts, you can deduct that it has higher velocity as well.
This is another quote from another source:
The biggest factor affecting velocity is the intake runner size. Cylinder head airflow is measured in cubic feet per minute, CFM for short. Logic states that if two cylinder heads flow the same volume of air in terms of CFM and having different intake runner volumes, one must have a higher airflow velocity than the other. The cylinder head with the smaller port volume must have a higher velocity in order to achieve the same volume of airflow. Higher velocity means greater fuel atomization and greater cylinder filling, which results in more horsepower. Tests have shown that large intake runners may ultimately produce the same high RPM horsepower, but low end torque is usually decreased, which results in less overall power. If the intake runner volume is extremely oversized the mid range torque may suffer so much that the street manners of the car will suffer. A race only car may not need to worry about intake runner volume because it may only operate in the 4000-7000 RPM range. For a street engine though runner volume is a serious consideration
One important aspect for great performing heads is the motion of the incoming fuel/air charge. Generally heads with good motion or swirl will perform better because they will burn the fuel/air mixture faster.
When heads burn faster you gain in 2 ways:
The engine will require less spark advance. By firing the mixture closer to TDC there will be less cylinder pressure to fight the piston rising to reaching TDC.
The burn will be completed sooner after TDC. This creates more cylinder pressure after TDC to push the piston down and make more power.
Both of these effects result in a more efficient engine making more power out of the same amount of air and fuel. In racing you want to maximize the efficiency of the engine because the result is more power. This is especially important in restricted classes of racing where restrictor plates severely limit air and fuel flow
Now this can be done while flowing the heads with a swirl meter and is relative to the shape of the chamber and the way it is finished. You are correct in saying that flow#s are not relative to swirl, but what I have seen in the PP heads is.
05-04-2006, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by 777
So basically you are saying that the AFR's, and ET's heads aren't any better than these budget heads. You are a joke. Or you are joking. One of the two.
Dont try to infer what I meant in my post, its obviously over your head.
05-04-2006, 07:36 PM
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Guys all of this theory is absolutely great, interesting and makes sense. BUT, TSP is going to do a real world test keeping variables the same between the CNCd Ls6 heads vs, AFRs etc.... They have invited anyone who wishes to witness the results to come observe the test. This is THE ONLY WAY to show the differences between each of these heads on the same setup. I look forward to the results and I think many will be quite suprised of the outcome.
Also running 28 vs 23.5 degress WOT timing made absolutely zero difference on my TSP Ls6 head setup. This "big" 237cc head produces 325rwtq at 2500 rpms, on stock 10.5 compression.
Also running 28 vs 23.5 degress WOT timing made absolutely zero difference on my TSP Ls6 head setup. This "big" 237cc head produces 325rwtq at 2500 rpms, on stock 10.5 compression.
Last edited by cantdrv65; 05-04-2006 at 11:01 PM.
05-05-2006, 01:59 PM
#38
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Originally Posted by cantdrv65
Im not joking the joke is on you and your wallet.... Dont try to infer what I meant in my post, its obviously over your head.
Dont try to infer what I meant in my post, its obviously over your head.I'll pay an extra $1,000 for another 20 rwhp. But I am looking to do alot of drag racing and minimal street racing so I fall into the "wants every last HP crowd". That's why I ordered ETP 215's and a custom cam.
I'm not saying there is anything wrong with Patriots. They flow good, perform good and are priced good. Just don't kid yourself into thinking they dyno as good as the more expensive ones do. This is yet another classic example of:
"you get what you pay for"
06-19-2006, 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by darrensls1
You may be laughing all the way to the bank but I'll be laughing all the way to the dyno and track. Patriots are decent heads for those who don't have alot of money and or are not looking for every last HP. But ETP 215's as well as AFR 205's can and do add anywhere from 10-25 rwhp above and beyond what the budget heads will do.
I'll pay an extra $1,000 for another 20 rwhp. But I am looking to do alot of drag racing and minimal street racing so I fall into the "wants every last HP crowd". That's why I ordered ETP 215's and a custom cam.
I'm not saying there is anything wrong with Patriots. They flow good, perform good and are priced good. Just don't kid yourself into thinking they dyno as good as the more expensive ones do. This is yet another classic example of:
"you get what you pay for"
I'll pay an extra $1,000 for another 20 rwhp. But I am looking to do alot of drag racing and minimal street racing so I fall into the "wants every last HP crowd". That's why I ordered ETP 215's and a custom cam.
I'm not saying there is anything wrong with Patriots. They flow good, perform good and are priced good. Just don't kid yourself into thinking they dyno as good as the more expensive ones do. This is yet another classic example of:
"you get what you pay for"