WS6 SRT-8

iTrader: (18)

Thanks everyone. I appreciate all the input. Looks like reverse split isn't bad after all.By the way, the cam I referenced was the Speed Inc grind.

BlackHawk T/A

iTrader: (3)

They have their place, as I stated. But you can do better.

PREDATOR-Z

Plot the VEs of the 2 cams mentionned and tell me what you see, i'm curious to know how you come up to this conclusion. Assuming this is a cam only change on a stock LS1 with normal bolt ons, same LSA/ICL

Studytime

iTrader: (15)

Well then don't hold out on us. Elaborate. I want strong torque/power with a relatively smooth idle. What do you have for me?

Ben T.

Studytime

iTrader: (15)

The VEs will be very similar for each, but the latter will open the exhaust vavle a little earlier depending on LSA. The differences in torque and power are really a compromise as for how much overlap you want. The same overlap that could make the second cam slightly more powerful is also going to hurt idle quality. The 230/224 is, if I'm not mistaken, ground 111 +0. If the 230/232 is on a 114 is has less overlap than the 111LSA cam or if it's on a 112 that it'll have an extra two degrees more overlap. Anyway, there's not going to be a huge difference in power production between the two. This isn't a race motor. We're not looking for 2's and 3's [hp], but rather having to make comprises as we have cars that are driven on the street.

How much power is it going to take to make an 11-second LS1 car pick up another mph? What, maybe 12hp at wheels. There's probably less than a 12hp difference between these cams and probably less than 12ft-lbs across the board difference. So, not really a huge advantage to either grind. Which cam will work better for a particular car will be more of a function of the rest of the car's setup than one being vastly superior to the other. (I just deducted maybe 1 mph difference between the two.) Anyway, if you're racing in hot south Louisiana summer-time air and then you go to No Problem Raceway (12ft above sea level) on a nice cool December day with a DA in the negatives you'll see more than a 1mph difference. That was my point. It wasn't anything shockingly profound.

If you see a flaw in the above PredatorZ set me straight. I have a somewhat limited knowlege of cars and I don't understand it all completely. I'm still trying to study it. But I do know that I'm not willing to make the necessary compromises to drive a big lopey cam on the street everyday. If we can tweak VEs to get a torquey grind that pulls hard up top while still keeping a livable idle, I think I like that.

Ben T.

PREDATOR-Z

Well, like I said 230/224 on a 111 Vs 230/232 on a 114 this is 2 different animals.
And we are talking cam only, no SCR change, heads or else.
The 230/224 will take to 230/232 all else being equal.
The 114+4 has 3* overlap while the 111 will have 5*, but while the 111 will have similar IVC 46 Vs 45 (114), the EVO is where the game is played. 43 (111) Vs 54 (114).

The 230/224 will carry as well as the 114+4 into the rpm, but will eat the 230/232 in midrange trq production. I would estimate a good 20>25 lbs or so and much earlier.

All else being equal with 2 same cars, clone drivers on same day and track at same moment, the 230/224 will take the 230/232 by a good .1>.2 in the 1/4

DCR on the 230/224 is also better, which means a better combustion.

There is more detail to this but just a few facts of the VEs intailed.

Studytime

iTrader: (15)

I didn't realize that a EVO closing of 11* would have eaten up some 20-25 ftlbs of torque! Told you I was stil learning about this. The difference in IVO/power band could be argued to be some what neglidible, but the advantage would go to the 230/224; however, if you add in the amount of torque deduction that you described for a 230/232 114- the decision gets clearer for a street driven vehicle.

Even still, you agreed with my main point. If I correct my last ETs from July, they drop three tenths when converted to standard conditions. In a -DA it would be more. Your statement coincides with this.

As for my opinion on which I would rather, I made it earlier in this post.

Ben T.

pushinfreight

A reverse split will work. Mine is a 236/230 on a 114lsa. It makes the power in the sig with 11.7:1 compression on pump gas no problem.

Kraest

iTrader: (3)

How does my comment reflect directly upon Thunder Racing? I just said that I'm not a fan of reverse duration cams. It looks like you guys like to take cheap shots at ME whenever you get the chance. Please grow up, Geoff.

And just for the record, I state fact, not take cheap shots.

PREDATOR-Z

Power under the curve is as important as peak power. A good cam that harnesses the most trq under the curve and keeps the highest average hp between shifts is bound to be a winning combination. That is not easy to do since by increasing one you diminish the other. Balanced combo is anything from your motor to drivetrain and suspention. So the mightiest cam is the one you can balance with the rest of your setup.
Bigger exhaust split is the opposite way to make up for poorer exhaust flowing heads, I'm sure you've taken a look at stock exhaust flow.
Geof just confirmed that the keyword is COMBO. Match it correctly and you can take advantage of what you run.
BTW a 230/224 on a 111 will lope nicely but by no means will be "difficult" on the street. 5* overlap is nothing. 15* + starts to be harder and more tempered due to our intake manifold design. Tuning SD helps but ultimmately it is the intake. Run ITB setup and hear a 24x/24x cam purr like a 224. You wouldn't even recognise a T-rex on a ITB setup.
I like your 8.8 setup BTW, good work on that.

Geoff

iTrader: (3)

Mike,

This thread doesn't need to get off topic...but if you would like I can dredge up a bunch of crap from Camaro Z28.com. YOU know that is the truth.

Studytime

iTrader: (15)

Thanks. Yes, I really, really like the 230/224 for all of the reasons you suggested. Even talked a good buddy into getting it for his car, and I have some good experience with it. First start up, it was rough but after a (MAF) tune, it's really not that bad. It makes GREAT low-end torque, and pulls like a gsx-r 750 up top.

What is ITB?

Also, PredatorZ, did you pick up on what I was saying about being really suprised how much exhaust restriction the 230/224 could withstand? I expected it would shine best with header extensions on a nice longtube according to the reverse split info I had been studying. Well, when my buddy's 230/224 was getting tune, I got really excited to see 383rwhp through a 3" Flowmaster catback. Figured with an open cut-out it would hit close to 400... well, it picked up 3hp. I was really baffled seeing this on a dynojet. I can only attribute it to this cam not having that much overlap and being able to accomodate some restriction. If that 3" flowmaster catback were on, say, a 232/234 112 cam with way more overlap I bet hp gained from the open cutout with have been way higher. Anyway, the dyno results completely went against what I expected, and apparently shows that with only 5* of overlap @ .050", it doesn't need a perfect exhaust to make decent power.

The car in question was a cam-only '01 ss with pacesetters, ORY, e-cutout, and a 3" American Thunder catback.

Ben T.

PREDATOR-Z

ITB => Independent Throttle Bodies, like Harrop intake.
Another nice one is the Wilson sheetmetal with tuned runners.

TXZ28LS1

iTrader: (5)

predator-z= THE DOOGIE HOWSER OF CAMS..LOL.. TOO MUCH KNOWLEDGE..

Kraest

iTrader: (3)

And I can dredge up a bunch of crap of your work on local customer's cars that your national customers have no idea about; however, we won't go there. YOU know that is the truth.

Once again, kindly stop starting **** with me. My first comment was not derogatory towards TR in the least. You have way more to lose than me by publicly acting like a doofus. I'm just a member. Your livelyhood depends on business here.

Finally, I'm not a fan of reverse-split cams in NA applications, regardless of who makes them.

Mike

Studytime

iTrader: (15)

If everyone else took it the same way I did (as a random LS1tech reader) then they also thought you were referring to Thunder Racing- as I did. FWIW, I would argue with it not being "derogatory towards TR in the least".

Anyway, could we talk about reverse split cams now and move on Mike?

Ben T.

Kraest

iTrader: (3)

Studytime

iTrader: (15)

Yeah, I guess you're right.

So, NOW can we get back to reverse split cams?

Ben T.

Kraest

iTrader: (3)

Ask Geoff. He's the one who started the tangent.

Nine Ball

iTrader: (38)

How about you drop the drama before I slip and fall on the ban button.

Back on track!