Broken MS3 Cam?!?!?!?!
11-26-2006, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by The stunningman
I wonder if maybe the heel of the lobe came apart rode the rest of the profile around and shot the lifter up further than it should have went resulting in coil binding and breakage of the head.
Either way, the cam was the cause of the damage and apparently Comp agrees because they actually inspected the cam. The motor has been completely gone through to make sure no other damage was sustained. The block was honed out and checked by a machine shop all of which im having to pay for.
I feel that TSP has done their part to help me out... but I feel that Comp could have done more to help out. I think when something like this happens, which it doesnt happen very often, then they should take responsibility for it. Sure they paid for the cam but what about the $2000 in labor charges (this includes removing and installing motor, assembling and disassembling motor, and machine shop labor) im having to fork out because of the damage the cam caused. I also had to pay for a bare head from TSP and then pay the machine shop to install the valves.
01-19-2007, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by The stunningman
I wonder if maybe the heel of the lobe came apart rode the rest of the profile around and shot the lifter up further than it should have went resulting in coil binding and breakage of the head.
Did you find the little piece from the heel of the cam? Where was it?
01-19-2007, 03:22 PM
#43
Why is that unlikely? It's happened before with those heads. So why would you say that? It's more likely than the cam falling apart.
I guess the big thing is that it's the vendor's responsibility. It wasn't sold as a "Comp Magic Stick 3". It was sold as a "TSP Magic Stick 3". And if I call Comp and ask for a Comp MS3, they'll say they don't sell one. So it should be like this:
TSP takes care of the customer --> Comp takes care of TSP (Comp's customer)
That would be the RIGHT way for all the parties to man up and take responsibility for their own product.
And that's not bashing TSP in any way. The thing with the heads is true, and they took care of the customers as far as I heard. So that's pretty good of them really.
I guess the big thing is that it's the vendor's responsibility. It wasn't sold as a "Comp Magic Stick 3". It was sold as a "TSP Magic Stick 3". And if I call Comp and ask for a Comp MS3, they'll say they don't sell one. So it should be like this:
TSP takes care of the customer --> Comp takes care of TSP (Comp's customer)
That would be the RIGHT way for all the parties to man up and take responsibility for their own product.
And that's not bashing TSP in any way. The thing with the heads is true, and they took care of the customers as far as I heard. So that's pretty good of them really.
01-20-2007, 05:11 AM
#44
Let me see if I understand this right... a part marketed by TSP breaks, causing catastrophic damage to other parts also sold by TSP and after waiting over a month for resolution they don't even cover all the parts to repair THEIR faulty part? Hell, they even made you purchase a new head! To put this in perspective, AFR got some valves from a supplier that were defective and this is how they handled it.
Big difference between a company manning up and doing the right thing and another doing the minimum to shut the customer up.
Galen
Originally Posted by Tony Mamo @ AFR
OK Guys…
After much debate, discussion, and consideration of this sensitive issue, we have decided to handle this situation as follows….
First and foremost is to alert AFR directly notifying us of the problem. What has also been helpful is for us to exchange a few digital pics (if possible) so we can confirm you have a problem before you remove the heads or invest any additional time. Once confirmed, we will provide you with an RMA number and our UPS account number to help facilitate the return of our merchandise. Once again….we are only covering ground freight….do not use any other type of service. Also, be sure to insure the heads for a dollar value that is representative of your original purchase price just in case they get damaged in transit.
Compensation regarding labor to R&R a pair of heads will be $600….that figure was arrived at after speaking with numerous shops (most of them dealers) that were polled regarding this issue and asked what they would charge to swap heads. Some of those dealers were very candid with us stating they would usually charge more (at straight up retail pricing) but were willing to help us considering the circumstances. The reality here is that AFR dealers are independently owned and operated, some of them will be willing to do it for this price (or even a few dollars less) while others may want a few dollars more. This isn’t a guarantee that every AFR dealer will charge you $600….just what we felt represented a fair figure based on the quotes and conversations we had. Your local shop may want $400 or $800 to do the job….we are willing to cover $600 of that tab and recommend that you speak with an AFR dealer who may be better equipped to handle it and might be more willing to save you some money. Keep in mind this figure is only the labor compensation and does not cover bolts, coolant, and gaskets which we will be the next topic discussed.
AFR will also provide head gaskets (Cometic, FelPro, or stock GM), new OEM bolts (assuming that’s what you are replacing) and an additional $20 to cover lost oil / antifreeze from the swap. The fluids reimbursement will be added to the $600 check, the head gaskets and fasteners sent in a separate box when we ship your cylinder heads. Note that if you are already using premium hardware (ARP, etc.) we will only be sending you the replacement head gaskets of your choice. In the event we are replacing your OEM bolts, please inform the AFR Sales Rep of that when you arrange the RMA number and return of your heads.
Also, it is important to note that we are NOT advocating the removal of heads from a running engine “just to be sure”. AFR will provide ZERO compensation in that situation (unless you have a confirmed problem). However, if you own a set of our heads that haven’t been installed yet you must send them back to us so we have the opportunity to evaluate them before they are installed. Note that AFR will not cover any labor costs, gaskets, or hardware on heads that were installed after Tuesday, November 21st. We will only make good on the product itself. This is to insure that people do not install heads in the future knowing they may have a problem but we would cover them anyway so why send them back to check….that wouldn’t be fair to us. If you have any AFR product with 8mm valve stems that are not installed on an engine, you must contact us and allow us the time we need to verify the valves installed in your cylinder heads. Once again, contact us directly for an RMA number to expedite the return of your cylinder heads. DO NOT SEND BACK ANY MERCHANDISE WITHOUT AN RMA #.....it will be refused. This is very important guys….do not omit this step or you will most certainly have more “down time” than necessary.
Last but not least and also of great importance (kind of the flip side of the paragraph above), if you ignore what will ultimately become an extremely noisy valve train (in the event you have some of the valves in question) and allow it to progress to the point a valve drops (worst case scenario), AFR will not pay for or reimburse you any differently than those who took care of this situation in a more timely manner. We will not cover any losses related to your shortblock etc. because it would have been negligence on your behalf to have allowed it to get that bad, especially with most of you now cognizant of a potential issue. In that situation (a problem left unchecked) there would be in excess of an eighth of an inch of play between the rocker and valve tip and the clacking/tapping noise from this type of slop would be clearly audible even to someone not “mechanically inclined”.
Guys…thankfully this kind of situation is a first for our organization (and hopefully a last!) and we are doing the best we can to handle it in a fair and proper manner, while at the same time trying to keep an eye on our exposure as well. Without fully knowing how many valves are soft in the field this was a challenging situation to confront and clearly address. We have tried to document this situation as well as our response and “solution” to the best of our abilities, but considering this type of thing has never been addressed before you might call it a work in progress so stay tuned in the event there is an update or two.
Hopefully few of you will have to deal with it but in the event you do feel free to contact myself or anyone in the AFR organization for further instructions….note that I spend a fair amount of time in R&D and can’t provide you with RMA information (in general I will be a little more difficult to get on the telephone) but assuming you attempt to contact me, I will certainly return your email, PM, or voice message as soon as time permits.
Thanks from all of us at AFR,
Tony Mamo
AFR Sales / R&D Mgr.
(661)257-8124
PS….Will update this thread with some pics of a few problem valves tomorrow….I know I promised to do that awhile ago.
After much debate, discussion, and consideration of this sensitive issue, we have decided to handle this situation as follows….
First and foremost is to alert AFR directly notifying us of the problem. What has also been helpful is for us to exchange a few digital pics (if possible) so we can confirm you have a problem before you remove the heads or invest any additional time. Once confirmed, we will provide you with an RMA number and our UPS account number to help facilitate the return of our merchandise. Once again….we are only covering ground freight….do not use any other type of service. Also, be sure to insure the heads for a dollar value that is representative of your original purchase price just in case they get damaged in transit.
Compensation regarding labor to R&R a pair of heads will be $600….that figure was arrived at after speaking with numerous shops (most of them dealers) that were polled regarding this issue and asked what they would charge to swap heads. Some of those dealers were very candid with us stating they would usually charge more (at straight up retail pricing) but were willing to help us considering the circumstances. The reality here is that AFR dealers are independently owned and operated, some of them will be willing to do it for this price (or even a few dollars less) while others may want a few dollars more. This isn’t a guarantee that every AFR dealer will charge you $600….just what we felt represented a fair figure based on the quotes and conversations we had. Your local shop may want $400 or $800 to do the job….we are willing to cover $600 of that tab and recommend that you speak with an AFR dealer who may be better equipped to handle it and might be more willing to save you some money. Keep in mind this figure is only the labor compensation and does not cover bolts, coolant, and gaskets which we will be the next topic discussed.
AFR will also provide head gaskets (Cometic, FelPro, or stock GM), new OEM bolts (assuming that’s what you are replacing) and an additional $20 to cover lost oil / antifreeze from the swap. The fluids reimbursement will be added to the $600 check, the head gaskets and fasteners sent in a separate box when we ship your cylinder heads. Note that if you are already using premium hardware (ARP, etc.) we will only be sending you the replacement head gaskets of your choice. In the event we are replacing your OEM bolts, please inform the AFR Sales Rep of that when you arrange the RMA number and return of your heads.
Also, it is important to note that we are NOT advocating the removal of heads from a running engine “just to be sure”. AFR will provide ZERO compensation in that situation (unless you have a confirmed problem). However, if you own a set of our heads that haven’t been installed yet you must send them back to us so we have the opportunity to evaluate them before they are installed. Note that AFR will not cover any labor costs, gaskets, or hardware on heads that were installed after Tuesday, November 21st. We will only make good on the product itself. This is to insure that people do not install heads in the future knowing they may have a problem but we would cover them anyway so why send them back to check….that wouldn’t be fair to us. If you have any AFR product with 8mm valve stems that are not installed on an engine, you must contact us and allow us the time we need to verify the valves installed in your cylinder heads. Once again, contact us directly for an RMA number to expedite the return of your cylinder heads. DO NOT SEND BACK ANY MERCHANDISE WITHOUT AN RMA #.....it will be refused. This is very important guys….do not omit this step or you will most certainly have more “down time” than necessary.
Last but not least and also of great importance (kind of the flip side of the paragraph above), if you ignore what will ultimately become an extremely noisy valve train (in the event you have some of the valves in question) and allow it to progress to the point a valve drops (worst case scenario), AFR will not pay for or reimburse you any differently than those who took care of this situation in a more timely manner. We will not cover any losses related to your shortblock etc. because it would have been negligence on your behalf to have allowed it to get that bad, especially with most of you now cognizant of a potential issue. In that situation (a problem left unchecked) there would be in excess of an eighth of an inch of play between the rocker and valve tip and the clacking/tapping noise from this type of slop would be clearly audible even to someone not “mechanically inclined”.
Guys…thankfully this kind of situation is a first for our organization (and hopefully a last!) and we are doing the best we can to handle it in a fair and proper manner, while at the same time trying to keep an eye on our exposure as well. Without fully knowing how many valves are soft in the field this was a challenging situation to confront and clearly address. We have tried to document this situation as well as our response and “solution” to the best of our abilities, but considering this type of thing has never been addressed before you might call it a work in progress so stay tuned in the event there is an update or two.
Hopefully few of you will have to deal with it but in the event you do feel free to contact myself or anyone in the AFR organization for further instructions….note that I spend a fair amount of time in R&D and can’t provide you with RMA information (in general I will be a little more difficult to get on the telephone) but assuming you attempt to contact me, I will certainly return your email, PM, or voice message as soon as time permits.
Thanks from all of us at AFR,
Tony Mamo
AFR Sales / R&D Mgr.
(661)257-8124
PS….Will update this thread with some pics of a few problem valves tomorrow….I know I promised to do that awhile ago.
Galen
01-20-2007, 05:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Galen
Let me see if I understand this right... a part marketed by TSP breaks, causing catastrophic damage to other parts also sold by TSP and after waiting over a month for resolution they don't even cover all the parts to repair THEIR faulty part? Hell, they even made you purchase a new head! To put this in perspective, AFR got some valves from a supplier that were defective and this is how they handled it.
Big difference between a company manning up and doing the right thing and another doing the minimum to shut the customer up.
Galen
Big difference between a company manning up and doing the right thing and another doing the minimum to shut the customer up.
Galen
01-20-2007, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by The stunningman
I wonder if maybe the heel of the lobe came apart rode the rest of the profile around and shot the lifter up further than it should have went resulting in coil binding and breakage of the head.
I feel like I was shafted on the deal considering I had to pay for the new head and ALL the labor involved. But going to court is too much of a hassle so what else am I suppose to do?
01-20-2007, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Galen
To put this in perspective, AFR got some valves from a supplier that were defective and this is how they handled it.
Big difference between a company manning up and doing the right thing and another doing the minimum to shut the customer up.
Galen
Big difference between a company manning up and doing the right thing and another doing the minimum to shut the customer up.
Galen
01-20-2007, 09:55 PM
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so what was the defective part? The cam couldn't have just come apart, thats not likely. What is more likey is the lifter failed and then a chain reaction started. I had a stock lifter spin in the bore and it did not crack the lifter tray or the bore. What it did do is destroy the cam lobe and send many, many bits of metal through my motor. So who is to blame here? Lets face it, we want to play, we have to pay at some point. Hats off to AFR and other vendors who are willing to protect their relationships by going the extra mile, but you can't expect a vendor or installer to cover 100% of costs when you decide to mod your motor and something breaks. Sorry to see this happen man, it sucks and I hope some of your costs get covered, but if they aren't, welcome to the world of high performance.
01-21-2007, 05:32 AM
#52
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Originally Posted by Quik99SS
The more i think about it the more i think something along those lines happened. See i did not actually get to see any of the damage in person. The shop that is working on my car took these pics and they are the ones that told me what they believed happened. So everything I have been saying is strictly based off of what i have been told.
Either way, the cam was the cause of the damage and apparently Comp agrees because they actually inspected the cam. The motor has been completely gone through to make sure no other damage was sustained. The block was honed out and checked by a machine shop all of which im having to pay for.
Either way, the cam was the cause of the damage and apparently Comp agrees because they actually inspected the cam. The motor has been completely gone through to make sure no other damage was sustained. The block was honed out and checked by a machine shop all of which im having to pay for.
You had a misfire/backfire problem before this damage and a chunk coming off the heel of the lobe didn't cause that.
So what was causing the mifire at 5000 RPMs - I would think that may be the best clue to what actually happened.
Do have pics of the block and pistons?
Last edited by DaddySS; 01-21-2007 at 05:46 AM.
01-21-2007, 10:35 AM
#53
The question of whether or not the suface below the rocker boss/spring seat was mic'd was never answered. I'd be curious to know what it measured, and what the true spring pressures were above that area.
I'm not an "expert" but IMO it seems a stretch to say(definatively)that at that RPM the chunk of lobe rode the profile(which would've had to been on the nose, 180* away) back around to the lifter roller and causing a coil bind issue instigating the resulting damage.
I'm also NOT pointing any finger of blame, but it would(logically)appear(to me)based on the pics, that the damage seems likely to have occurred/started above the lobe and the resulting debris found it's way to the lobe/roller at just the right time which caused the damage to the lobe.
FWIW.... I have personally seen the same EXACT damage on LS6 heads which resulted from too much material being removed from the area below the rocker/spring seat which couldn't handle the spring loads placed on it(which is why I'd want to see the results of mic'ing that portion of the spring seat/rocker boss.
I hope whatever is causing this type of failure is caught. Surely sucks for the end user.
I'm not an "expert" but IMO it seems a stretch to say(definatively)that at that RPM the chunk of lobe rode the profile(which would've had to been on the nose, 180* away) back around to the lifter roller and causing a coil bind issue instigating the resulting damage.
I'm also NOT pointing any finger of blame, but it would(logically)appear(to me)based on the pics, that the damage seems likely to have occurred/started above the lobe and the resulting debris found it's way to the lobe/roller at just the right time which caused the damage to the lobe.
FWIW.... I have personally seen the same EXACT damage on LS6 heads which resulted from too much material being removed from the area below the rocker/spring seat which couldn't handle the spring loads placed on it(which is why I'd want to see the results of mic'ing that portion of the spring seat/rocker boss.
I hope whatever is causing this type of failure is caught. Surely sucks for the end user.
01-21-2007, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by mcamp001
so what was the defective part? The cam couldn't have just come apart, thats not likely. What is more likey is the lifter failed and then a chain reaction started. I had a stock lifter spin in the bore and it did not crack the lifter tray or the bore. What it did do is destroy the cam lobe and send many, many bits of metal through my motor. So who is to blame here? Lets face it, we want to play, we have to pay at some point. Hats off to AFR and other vendors who are willing to protect their relationships by going the extra mile, but you can't expect a vendor or installer to cover 100% of costs when you decide to mod your motor and something breaks. Sorry to see this happen man, it sucks and I hope some of your costs get covered, but if they aren't, welcome to the world of high performance.
The parts were heat cycled. What more do u need to do as far as break in for heads and cam?
Spring pressures were good cause they were checked by a local machine shop. The thickness of the surface of the head was never measured and I havent gotten my broken head back yet so i cant measure it.
Im guessing the misfire was caused either by the crack or irregular surface on the cam. What else would cause a misfire at exactly 5000rpms every single time?
Either way every part that we are discussing that could have caused this to happen were brand new from TSP or Comp.
01-21-2007, 06:09 PM
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I am not taking sides in this issue. I have built enough motors to know that NOTHING is guaranteed not to break. Maybe I am just too old fashioned, but part of me reminds me that I am building a modified street/strip motor. I am doing that understanding the potential risks and costs (losses) from the down side of that risk. I also only buy from the most reputable manufacturers and machine shops. Even after all I can humanly do to minimize my risks, I still understand that stuff happens.
Remember: There are plenty of engine parts manufacturers in the world that have done very little if anything in similar cases. That is what separates the spirit from the letter of law.
Remember: There are plenty of engine parts manufacturers in the world that have done very little if anything in similar cases. That is what separates the spirit from the letter of law.
01-21-2007, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by N4cer
If It's Sold As A Performance Part, It Should Be Able To Handle That Performance, Right?
01-21-2007, 07:42 PM
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And my point, while perhaps weakly expressed, is that some manufacturers will only take minimal responsibility, while others will take more.
Ultimately, though, the buyer takes the most risk in that most manufacturers (and laws written to protect the consumer) only warranty the defective part (replacement of that part), not every and all potential damages from that failed part. One can only hope that a company will step beyond that "legal" responsibility and go beyond the mark.
Ultimately, though, the buyer takes the most risk in that most manufacturers (and laws written to protect the consumer) only warranty the defective part (replacement of that part), not every and all potential damages from that failed part. One can only hope that a company will step beyond that "legal" responsibility and go beyond the mark.
01-21-2007, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by brad8266
Yeah but there are so many variables that can cause **** to break, its hard to place blame.
How does Comp KNOW that the cam lobe broke due to it being defective versus perhaps another contributing issues: mechanical such inadequate oiling AND high rpms, and/or human issues such asinadequate preparation, improper assembly, improper break-in, etc, etc.
Granted, Comp is replacing the cam which COULD mean they determined that the cam was defective (did they express their opinion that the cam was defective?) OR did they feel some responsibility that their product may have been imperfect but not solely responsible and that this was exasperated by other mechanical or human contributing factors?
I am just offering open minded scenarios to the situation.
If it was the former (that the cam was defective AND the sole cause for failure) and this is an isolated instance, one would hope that they would recognize the opportunity to offer more assistance as a good faith effort to maintain their good name.
01-21-2007, 08:39 PM
#60
Just for discussion's sake, let's consider your thoughts.
You don't break in a hydraulic roller cam. So Comp knows that wasn't it.
Inadequate oiling would leave heat scarring on the cam, so they'd know that wasn't it.
What preparation are you doing to cams that if ignored would cause a piece of the metal to break free? All we ever have done to a hydraulic roller is put some motor oil on it, just because that's what people say to do. In reality we know it'd be oiled anyway so that can't be it.
I can't imagine how you can assemble a cam so that a piece of the metal disconnects from the rest of the metal when it's such a small, thin piece. Not like it's a huge hunk.
You don't break in a hydraulic roller cam. So Comp knows that wasn't it.
Inadequate oiling would leave heat scarring on the cam, so they'd know that wasn't it.
What preparation are you doing to cams that if ignored would cause a piece of the metal to break free? All we ever have done to a hydraulic roller is put some motor oil on it, just because that's what people say to do. In reality we know it'd be oiled anyway so that can't be it.
I can't imagine how you can assemble a cam so that a piece of the metal disconnects from the rest of the metal when it's such a small, thin piece. Not like it's a huge hunk.