AFR's RESOLUTION (Valve tip issue)
11-20-2006, 08:19 PM
#1
AFR's RESOLUTION (Valve tip issue) OK Guys…
After much debate, discussion, and consideration of this sensitive issue, we have decided to handle this situation as follows….
First and foremost is to alert AFR directly notifying us of the problem. What has also been helpful is for us to exchange a few digital pics (if possible) so we can confirm you have a problem before you remove the heads or invest any additional time. Once confirmed, we will provide you with an RMA number and our UPS account number to help facilitate the return of our merchandise. Once again….we are only covering ground freight….do not use any other type of service. Also, be sure to insure the heads for a dollar value that is representative of your original purchase price just in case they get damaged in transit.
Compensation regarding labor to R&R a pair of heads will be $600….that figure was arrived at after speaking with numerous shops (most of them dealers) that were polled regarding this issue and asked what they would charge to swap heads. Some of those dealers were very candid with us stating they would usually charge more (at straight up retail pricing) but were willing to help us considering the circumstances. The reality here is that AFR dealers are independently owned and operated, some of them will be willing to do it for this price (or even a few dollars less) while others may want a few dollars more. This isn’t a guarantee that every AFR dealer will charge you $600….just what we felt represented a fair figure based on the quotes and conversations we had. Your local shop may want $400 or $800 to do the job….we are willing to cover $600 of that tab and recommend that you speak with an AFR dealer who may be better equipped to handle it and might be more willing to save you some money. Keep in mind this figure is only the labor compensation and does not cover bolts, coolant, and gaskets which we will be the next topic discussed.
AFR will also provide head gaskets (Cometic, FelPro, or stock GM), new OEM bolts (assuming that’s what you are replacing) and an additional $20 to cover lost oil / antifreeze from the swap. The fluids reimbursement will be added to the $600 check, the head gaskets and fasteners sent in a separate box when we ship your cylinder heads. Note that if you are already using premium hardware (ARP, etc.) we will only be sending you the replacement head gaskets of your choice. In the event we are replacing your OEM bolts, please inform the AFR Sales Rep of that when you arrange the RMA number and return of your heads.
Also, it is important to note that we are NOT advocating the removal of heads from a running engine “just to be sure”. AFR will provide ZERO compensation in that situation (unless you have a confirmed problem). However, if you own a set of our heads that haven’t been installed yet you must send them back to us so we have the opportunity to evaluate them before they are installed. Note that AFR will not cover any labor costs, gaskets, or hardware on heads that were installed after Tuesday, November 21st. We will only make good on the product itself. This is to insure that people do not install heads in the future knowing they may have a problem but we would cover them anyway so why send them back to check….that wouldn’t be fair to us. If you have any AFR product with 8mm valve stems that are not installed on an engine, you must contact us and allow us the time we need to verify the valves installed in your cylinder heads. Once again, contact us directly for an RMA number to expedite the return of your cylinder heads. DO NOT SEND BACK ANY MERCHANDISE WITHOUT AN RMA #.....it will be refused. This is very important guys….do not omit this step or you will most certainly have more “down time” than necessary.
Last but not least and also of great importance (kind of the flip side of the paragraph above), if you ignore what will ultimately become an extremely noisy valve train (in the event you have some of the valves in question) and allow it to progress to the point a valve drops (worst case scenario), AFR will not pay for or reimburse you any differently than those who took care of this situation in a more timely manner. We will not cover any losses related to your shortblock etc. because it would have been negligence on your behalf to have allowed it to get that bad, especially with most of you now cognizant of a potential issue. In that situation (a problem left unchecked) there would be in excess of an eighth of an inch of play between the rocker and valve tip and the clacking/tapping noise from this type of slop would be clearly audible even to someone not “mechanically inclined”.
Guys…thankfully this kind of situation is a first for our organization (and hopefully a last!) and we are doing the best we can to handle it in a fair and proper manner, while at the same time trying to keep an eye on our exposure as well. Without fully knowing how many valves are soft in the field this was a challenging situation to confront and clearly address. We have tried to document this situation as well as our response and “solution” to the best of our abilities, but considering this type of thing has never been addressed before you might call it a work in progress so stay tuned in the event there is an update or two.
Hopefully few of you will have to deal with it but in the event you do feel free to contact myself or anyone in the AFR organization for further instructions….note that I spend a fair amount of time in R&D and can’t provide you with RMA information (in general I will be a little more difficult to get on the telephone) but assuming you attempt to contact me, I will certainly return your email, PM, or voice message as soon as time permits.
Thanks from all of us at AFR,
Tony Mamo
AFR Sales / R&D Mgr.
(661)257-8124
PS….Will update this thread with some pics of a few problem valves tomorrow….I know I promised to do that awhile ago.
After much debate, discussion, and consideration of this sensitive issue, we have decided to handle this situation as follows….
First and foremost is to alert AFR directly notifying us of the problem. What has also been helpful is for us to exchange a few digital pics (if possible) so we can confirm you have a problem before you remove the heads or invest any additional time. Once confirmed, we will provide you with an RMA number and our UPS account number to help facilitate the return of our merchandise. Once again….we are only covering ground freight….do not use any other type of service. Also, be sure to insure the heads for a dollar value that is representative of your original purchase price just in case they get damaged in transit.
Compensation regarding labor to R&R a pair of heads will be $600….that figure was arrived at after speaking with numerous shops (most of them dealers) that were polled regarding this issue and asked what they would charge to swap heads. Some of those dealers were very candid with us stating they would usually charge more (at straight up retail pricing) but were willing to help us considering the circumstances. The reality here is that AFR dealers are independently owned and operated, some of them will be willing to do it for this price (or even a few dollars less) while others may want a few dollars more. This isn’t a guarantee that every AFR dealer will charge you $600….just what we felt represented a fair figure based on the quotes and conversations we had. Your local shop may want $400 or $800 to do the job….we are willing to cover $600 of that tab and recommend that you speak with an AFR dealer who may be better equipped to handle it and might be more willing to save you some money. Keep in mind this figure is only the labor compensation and does not cover bolts, coolant, and gaskets which we will be the next topic discussed.
AFR will also provide head gaskets (Cometic, FelPro, or stock GM), new OEM bolts (assuming that’s what you are replacing) and an additional $20 to cover lost oil / antifreeze from the swap. The fluids reimbursement will be added to the $600 check, the head gaskets and fasteners sent in a separate box when we ship your cylinder heads. Note that if you are already using premium hardware (ARP, etc.) we will only be sending you the replacement head gaskets of your choice. In the event we are replacing your OEM bolts, please inform the AFR Sales Rep of that when you arrange the RMA number and return of your heads.
Also, it is important to note that we are NOT advocating the removal of heads from a running engine “just to be sure”. AFR will provide ZERO compensation in that situation (unless you have a confirmed problem). However, if you own a set of our heads that haven’t been installed yet you must send them back to us so we have the opportunity to evaluate them before they are installed. Note that AFR will not cover any labor costs, gaskets, or hardware on heads that were installed after Tuesday, November 21st. We will only make good on the product itself. This is to insure that people do not install heads in the future knowing they may have a problem but we would cover them anyway so why send them back to check….that wouldn’t be fair to us. If you have any AFR product with 8mm valve stems that are not installed on an engine, you must contact us and allow us the time we need to verify the valves installed in your cylinder heads. Once again, contact us directly for an RMA number to expedite the return of your cylinder heads. DO NOT SEND BACK ANY MERCHANDISE WITHOUT AN RMA #.....it will be refused. This is very important guys….do not omit this step or you will most certainly have more “down time” than necessary.
Last but not least and also of great importance (kind of the flip side of the paragraph above), if you ignore what will ultimately become an extremely noisy valve train (in the event you have some of the valves in question) and allow it to progress to the point a valve drops (worst case scenario), AFR will not pay for or reimburse you any differently than those who took care of this situation in a more timely manner. We will not cover any losses related to your shortblock etc. because it would have been negligence on your behalf to have allowed it to get that bad, especially with most of you now cognizant of a potential issue. In that situation (a problem left unchecked) there would be in excess of an eighth of an inch of play between the rocker and valve tip and the clacking/tapping noise from this type of slop would be clearly audible even to someone not “mechanically inclined”.
Guys…thankfully this kind of situation is a first for our organization (and hopefully a last!) and we are doing the best we can to handle it in a fair and proper manner, while at the same time trying to keep an eye on our exposure as well. Without fully knowing how many valves are soft in the field this was a challenging situation to confront and clearly address. We have tried to document this situation as well as our response and “solution” to the best of our abilities, but considering this type of thing has never been addressed before you might call it a work in progress so stay tuned in the event there is an update or two.
Hopefully few of you will have to deal with it but in the event you do feel free to contact myself or anyone in the AFR organization for further instructions….note that I spend a fair amount of time in R&D and can’t provide you with RMA information (in general I will be a little more difficult to get on the telephone) but assuming you attempt to contact me, I will certainly return your email, PM, or voice message as soon as time permits.
Thanks from all of us at AFR,
Tony Mamo
AFR Sales / R&D Mgr.
(661)257-8124
PS….Will update this thread with some pics of a few problem valves tomorrow….I know I promised to do that awhile ago.
11-20-2006, 08:33 PM
#4
TECH Addict
Tony: This is outstanding IMHO and an excellent approach from you on the customer service side. Replace the heads, pay for shipping, supply head gaskets, cover labor and fluids, now that's what I call a responsible performance parts group standing behind their product. Sure there will be those who think it's not enough and those who think it's more than generous but it is certainly a good, honest, quality approach to the problem.
Hat's off to you and you'll no doubt make some customers for life by your actions - count me as one!
Hat's off to you and you'll no doubt make some customers for life by your actions - count me as one!
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11-21-2006, 07:38 AM
#11
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Hi Tony..
Have you been able to pinpoint ANY possible date of production or delivery as to the earliest time when this issue was suspected?
1/2006 or would it go back to heads received in 2005...????
Have you been able to pinpoint ANY possible date of production or delivery as to the earliest time when this issue was suspected?
1/2006 or would it go back to heads received in 2005...????
11-21-2006, 07:45 AM
#12
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Ive never heard of a company doing this. You sir are running a great show. And Im sure you will be rewarded for your honesty in some way or form. I am sold that my next set of heads will be AFR's ! Wow what a company.
11-21-2006, 08:09 AM
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Wow.. guess I should visit the IE section more often. VERY stand up Tony and AFR! Where can I get more info aout this problem? I know a few locals with AFR heads.
11-21-2006, 08:09 AM
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What Exactly is the issue. Is the material defective from the company you use is it all the valves or just a batch of them that are bad. Ill be checking mine now regularly But they are fairly new I just installed them this past April.
11-21-2006, 08:32 AM
#16
Originally Posted by YO-EL
Hi Tony..
Have you been able to pinpoint ANY possible date of production or delivery as to the earliest time when this issue was suspected?
1/2006 or would it go back to heads received in 2005...????
Have you been able to pinpoint ANY possible date of production or delivery as to the earliest time when this issue was suspected?
1/2006 or would it go back to heads received in 2005...????
11-21-2006, 12:42 PM
#20
Guys....
Here are the pics I promised you....sorry for the delay.
This one shows some of the earlier signs of the problem....note the pitting on top of the tip. Your valvetrain will not make any noise at this stage of the game.
Unfortunately this picture is blurry (I will try and replace it with a clearer shot at a later date) but it will show the soft tip problem more advanced (over 5000 miles pitured here). Note the height of the actual tip on the right has eroded and at this stage you will actually have play (lash) between the valve tip and the rocker arm producing a very audible clacking/tapping noise from the rocker smacking down on the tip. If ignored, the tip will erode even more over time (and could cause a valve to drop in a worst case scenario) but it will take quite a bit of time to get that bad and the clacking noise will become even more audible if its allowed to progress that far.
I will address a few of your other questions in my next post....bear with me as I have alot on my plate right now.
Thanks,
Tony
Here are the pics I promised you....sorry for the delay.
This one shows some of the earlier signs of the problem....note the pitting on top of the tip. Your valvetrain will not make any noise at this stage of the game.
Unfortunately this picture is blurry (I will try and replace it with a clearer shot at a later date) but it will show the soft tip problem more advanced (over 5000 miles pitured here). Note the height of the actual tip on the right has eroded and at this stage you will actually have play (lash) between the valve tip and the rocker arm producing a very audible clacking/tapping noise from the rocker smacking down on the tip. If ignored, the tip will erode even more over time (and could cause a valve to drop in a worst case scenario) but it will take quite a bit of time to get that bad and the clacking noise will become even more audible if its allowed to progress that far.
I will address a few of your other questions in my next post....bear with me as I have alot on my plate right now.
Thanks,
Tony
Last edited by jrp; 11-21-2006 at 03:46 PM.
