Ive seen this piece in person. Let me tell you the craftsmanship is top notch. Makes the whole front of the engine cleaner looking. I was at the track on saturday when Joe was testing this. You couldnt even talk to him because he was autotaping and looking at every change and gain from this unit. This is not a part for everyone. But either is turbos or superchargers. Just think of all the people out there that gave money for the twin turbos up front with out even seeing it! Some still are having issues with them too. I would not worry about this unit at all. The price is not cheap, but then again your not driving a 89 CRX! It will be one of my summer projects.

 

I'd like to see someone dyno with there car just up to heat & by pass the water pump with the belt. I have a hard time believing those gains from 4,000-6,000 with the electric pump.

 

Where are the pics?

 

Joe, thanks for putting the effort into this. Too expensive for me so I won't be buying one.

A question for anyone. If reverse flow is so great why did GM not make the LS1 reverse flow like the LT1. Sorry if it's already been answered.

About the Mezziere. Are there any other issues besides not having a thermostat provision that make this not good for the street. Seems like you could use a temp controlled switch to turn the pump on and off. Or some kind of in-line thermosat. Maybe there's something else I haven't thought of? I live in AZ so I don't need a heater.
<img src="images/icons/confused.gif" border="0">
Jim

 

Post..

(Q) I'd like to see someone dyno with there car just up to heat & by pass the water pump with the belt. I have a hard time believing those gains from 4,000-6,000 with the electric pump.

(A) you will fry the heads..

(Q) Where are the pics?

(A) They were supposed to be up tonight as far as I know.

(Q) A question for anyone. If reverse flow is so great why did GM not make the LS1 reverse flow like the LT1. Sorry if it's already been answered.

(A) GM did, but there manual reversed cooled pump was not used due to the fact that the original inventor (Evans cooling) slaped a law suit/court injunction for a production halt against GM for copyright infringements.

(Q)About the Mezziere. Are there any other issues besides not having a thermostat provision that make this not good for the street. Seems like you could use a temp controlled switch to turn the pump on and off. Or some kind of in-line thermosat. Maybe there's something else I haven't thought of? I live in AZ so I don't need a heater

(A) No thermostat, No heater core, No LEV circuit, No PS or AC and I think there is some kind of bracketry that has to be made or supplied to run the ALT. Their unit is conventionally cooled.

 

If I could really get a .2 reduction in the 1/4 I would consider it. My only worry would be longevity. I would hate to drop almost a grand on a hard part and have it fail on me. I think if the pump proves itself with the first 50 or 100 die hards that it will gain more acceptance. I was looking forward to it's debut and expecting for a price tag around the $600.00 mark but at it's current price I will wait for feedback.

topfig
MGySgt USMC

 

this was covered over on the "other board" but the LS1 was designed to be reverse cooled, that's why the coolant lines under the intake, but at the last minuet it was shelved. The two stories I heard were poor Cat. convertor light off on warm up, so the car couldn't get it's LEV status from the gov't. and the other story there was a legal issue with paying a royalty on reverse cooling. I don't know how much truth is in either one, if any, I'm just passing on info.

As for performance gains, we have seen .2 as a minimum gain with just bolting the pump on, no other mods. Where it really shines is when it lets youunleash the full potential of your setup. With our pump keeping the cylinder head temps in a more efficient heat range for performance and volumetric efficiency, you can possibly realize the true potential of your car. The reason for this is GM keeps the coolant temp High,205-deg, primarily for emissions,that's one of the reasons we started on this project, so we could get more out of the engine as it sits. As some of you have said that at a 10.XX ET you won't pick up .2 and you're correct you won't get that gain from the reduction of parasitic loss, becaus of the law of diminishing returns, but what can you gain in optomizing the combination that you have??? isn't thermal dynamics the reason we coat our headers, ice our intakes?? do throttle body coolant bypasses?? so they work more effeciently ???

Jay

 

[quote]Originally posted by Joe Prince:
<strong>(Q)About the Mezziere. Are there any other issues besides not having a thermostat provision that make this not good for the street. Seems like you could use a temp controlled switch to turn the pump on and off. Or some kind of in-line thermosat. Maybe there's something else I haven't thought of? I live in AZ so I don't need a heater

(A) No thermostat, No heater core, No LEV circuit, No PS or AC and I think there is some kind of bracketry that has to be made or supplied to run the ALT. Their unit is conventionally cooled.</strong><hr></blockquote>

OK thanks Joe. My AC & PS are already gone. I'd like to ditch the heater. I can see that you'd have to figure out some way to either add an idler puller or make the alternator bracket adjustable to be able to put a belt on and keep it tight. Maybe a Mezziere will be a summer project for me (off season in AZ). What's an LEV circuit?
Jim

 

Jim

we have a billet tensioner machined into the face of the pump.
the LEV Low Emission Vehicle
the gov't has certain specs that the vehicle manufacturers have to ad hear too for that status and we have kept all that functional in it's original form but we can't guarantee it will pass the gov't specs.

Jay

 

Thanks Jay. May car has no chance of passing emissions anyway so I guess no LEV is not a problem <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0">
I'm sure I could get an adjustable alt bracket from some of the street rodding fabbers. Just thinking out loud.

 

Send me one to test, I'll install it, document the install with photos, run it on the dyno, and send the waterpump back to you afterwards.

I'd like to see the gains......lets see some dyno charts from a stock ls1, and a heads/cam ls1 (with underdrive pulley).

For $850 I need numbers, evidence, from a trusted 3rd party. 2 tenths or even 10rwhp would be awesome.

 

Raugh you crack me up <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0"> Sounds like a helluva deal to me. Double or nothing, ha. I have a feeling there will be no taker though. I think to sell them they will have cut the price to the first dozen customers or so to get validation of their tests. If everybody got 2 tenths, they'd sell a few....not to me of course <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">

 

haha this thread is great... i agree, not to knock joe prince because we do get some great r&d and testing done for different products to be developed and etc..

but we arent made of money to be spending $850+ on a waterpump... i think the claims are a little high too.. they posted claims on a stock car, but how many stock cars will put in the $850 waterpump as their first mod? not many...

so maybe they should have done some r&d with some heavily modified cars and seen what it does.. not like it wouldnt be hard to test with the weekly track goers..

 

I am going to get one, after I hit the lottery <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0"> Seriously, that's almost the price of the direct port N2O setup I want. Me thinks the EWP will be a dinosaur soon, and then no way to replace or repair when it goes out. Can you say, "$850 paper weight?"

I have had the water pump off my car several times. I guess it weighs only 10-12 pounds, so where does the significant weight loss come from? You telling me that 5-6 pounds is gonna make the car sit higher. I guess that EWP also comes with LSD? <img src="graemlins/gr_devil.gif" border="0" alt="[devil]" />

 

I guess the water pump will add 5-10#s of weight. 2.5-.4ths is completely unrealistic, but I suspect a stock engine car with no under drive pulley will pick up .17ths and some of the high compression 10/low 11 second guys will see .1th if they add more timing in the mix. It's not a first mod by any means, but when you see guys swapping cams trying to pick up another .1th, the price tag falls in to perspective.

Of course you can make your own EWP for around $275+4-5hrs of work, but I still need to find an inline thermostat to perfect the design. <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">

 

what would be a gp price, or could you do a gp on something like this

 

$850!?!?!?! JEEZ!!! You guys go to the same class on raping ls1 owners and blaming it on R&D that FLP went to?

 

[quote](Q) I'd like to see someone dyno with there car just up to heat & by pass the water pump with the belt. I have a hard time believing those gains from 4,000-6,000 with the electric pump.

(A) you will fry the heads.. <hr></blockquote>

Well, I'll answer my findings on that, and I didn't fry my heads <img src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0"> Trust me I have since pulled them and they are fine..and the temp guage showed 220 degrees when we shut her down.

With an ASP pulley, I added a shortbelt over the stcok belt and gained 2rwhp...Yay!...then pulled the entire belt, that's right the entire belt off for the next run and it went up 3rwhp! WOW! Total 5rwhp!

Haha! guys if you have an underdrive pulley there is not much of a parasitic hp loss through the accessories.

 

FWIW on LT1's an electric waterpump is typically worth 6-10rwhp.


Chris

 

[quote]Originally posted by Jay 95WS6:
We know that this pump is not for everybody and we don't think that everybody will but them, but I wouldn't make the claims if I couldn't back them up.
<hr></blockquote>
Hi Jay. If you would please back up your claims...I would appreciate it. I know of no independent tester that has used this pump and gained 3.5 tenths. If you have one that you have used... can you please post his email? We would like to ask him a few questions.
2nd part to the above quote. If those claims are not doable? why make them, If they are doable, Can I get your personal garuntee that I will pick up 3.5 tenths from this pump? If every thing has been optimized?

[quote]
On a STOCK 99TA we picked up .2 and 2 mph with no changes but the pump. we made more power on Joe's SS with a modified PCM with a more aggressive fuel and timing curves, but i'm not going to advertise those #'s as gospel.

<hr></blockquote>
I have read what you posted on the other boards/magazines... you say there are better numbers to be had with a modified car. If so then my 3.5 tenths should be childs play.

This what y'all told HPP magazine ... yes?
25hp rwhp and 15lbs rwtorque on a modified car

13 rwhp and 10lbs rwtq on a stock engine.

So I will gain 25 rwhp from no other mods? or is this with more tuning than I have right now. I have VERY aggresive spark tables. I have higher compression than normal. So I should pick up this claimed 25 rwhp ...yes?

Jay my offer still stands. I will pay TWICE the price. What is that... 1700 dollars if the pump was to give me 3.5 tenths. Do you have that much faith in your product?

I have seen NOTHING listed that is indicative of 3.5 tenths of real world track gains. Are there some gains to be made? Sure... no doubt about it.
But 3.5 tenths? Sorry, that is just too SLPish for me.

Do you offer a discount if someone were to choose a less expensive "Hose,clamp" option on the water pump?

Let me finish up by saying that I appreciate all the work that has gone into this product. i admire the persistance that went into it. But coming on the boards and making claims of 3.5 thenths and at a cost of 850 bones with no out side, independently tested, proof just strikes me as ludicrous.

Have y'all sold any of these at these prices? If so how did the car fare at the track? Do we know this fella?

Raugh.