The LS1 EWP is out
12-22-2001, 11:45 PM
#102
Re: The LS1 EWP is out Yea me too John.
I'll try to keep it civil.
But I'm really getting tire of the favortism.
Some shops r Gods.They never make mistakes.
Heavens NO!!
I tell the truth,I dont candy coat
People dont like to hear brutal honesty.
So of course they come back w/a cute remark about my personality or insulting my intelligence
I'M A DRAG RACER,PERIOD..
And I want the Pump info too...
The bottem line is someone needs to test the pump.
REALLY fine tune it and take advantage of its uses.
JD's,I know Joe personally but this is not his expertise.They r NOT qualified to test this thing out.Joe is okay w/ the carb engines but dosent know enough about the LS1/EFI
Larocca,Not a chance....
Joe has used him that wouldnt be fair
It looks like MTI/ARE/TR shlould be the companies to test this pump out and Jay should send one to one of them...
I believe these shops expertise and knowledge will give honest,truthful testing and in my gut it will produce 10 to 15 RWHP.
I could be wrong
This is an opinion,Nothing more...
JS
DRAG RACER
I'll try to keep it civil.
But I'm really getting tire of the favortism.
Some shops r Gods.They never make mistakes.
Heavens NO!!
I tell the truth,I dont candy coat
People dont like to hear brutal honesty.
So of course they come back w/a cute remark about my personality or insulting my intelligence
I'M A DRAG RACER,PERIOD..
And I want the Pump info too...
The bottem line is someone needs to test the pump.
REALLY fine tune it and take advantage of its uses.
JD's,I know Joe personally but this is not his expertise.They r NOT qualified to test this thing out.Joe is okay w/ the carb engines but dosent know enough about the LS1/EFI
Larocca,Not a chance....
Joe has used him that wouldnt be fair
It looks like MTI/ARE/TR shlould be the companies to test this pump out and Jay should send one to one of them...
I believe these shops expertise and knowledge will give honest,truthful testing and in my gut it will produce 10 to 15 RWHP.
I could be wrong
This is an opinion,Nothing more...
JS
DRAG RACER
12-23-2001, 12:17 AM
#103
Re: The LS1 EWP is out [quote]Originally posted by JS:
<strong>It looks like MTI/ARE/TR shlould be the companies to test this pump out and Jay should send one to one of them...
I believe these shops expertise and knowledge will give honest,truthful testing and in my gut it will produce 10 to 15 RWHP.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
*DING!*
*cough.*
My car will be at MTI for roughly 4-5 more weeks. Any time after they get the heads back from ARE, the car will be available for a rough approximation of what I offered earlier. *IF* anyone wants to pay MTI to program the computer for more power to take advantage of the Rev. cooling after that, I'd be glad to let them see what its worth. Im sure Jeff can work us up a great deal.
chris
<strong>It looks like MTI/ARE/TR shlould be the companies to test this pump out and Jay should send one to one of them...
I believe these shops expertise and knowledge will give honest,truthful testing and in my gut it will produce 10 to 15 RWHP.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
*DING!*
*cough.*
My car will be at MTI for roughly 4-5 more weeks. Any time after they get the heads back from ARE, the car will be available for a rough approximation of what I offered earlier. *IF* anyone wants to pay MTI to program the computer for more power to take advantage of the Rev. cooling after that, I'd be glad to let them see what its worth. Im sure Jeff can work us up a great deal.
chris
12-23-2001, 12:23 AM
#104
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Re: The LS1 EWP is out I'll certainly do my best to make sure there is no favoritism on the site. I try to be very careful with my endorsements.
This EWP is a bit more tricky. The major cost for it's manufacturers JWP/JPR is the custom housing right?
Well let's put this in perspective.
At the urging of a few folks from the board, I called up Meziere and talked to one of their guys.
$369 Mezier electric water pump, as seen on www.ls1speed.com
-lacks heater hose provision
-lacks t-stat
-not reverse cooled
BUT, they can sell you a fitting that you can use so you can use your heating system.
BUT, you can buy an inline thermostat, I have the info for that too.
BUT, it's not reverse cooled!
I'm guessing you could do Meziere setup for around $500 with the possibility of some fabrication work. Guy from Mezier mentioned an issue of possibly not being able to keep the powersteering. Not sure why. Also, Terry (Burger) said ot me on the fone Friday that there may be other bracket issues. Perhaps he could elaborate.
So in some respects my findings validate the costs behind the JWP/JPR water pump. Aeroquip fittings are not cheap either.
Do I think that braided lines and Aeroquip fittings are necessary? Not necessarily... Are they nice? Oh yes.
I have heard of two LS1's in California running Meziere setups, but have no data on them.
If the gain with the Meziere was like 5rwhp for $500, I think I will not do it. Sounds like the gains from reverse cooling could be bigger, how much timing do LT1's run at WOT? 38 I think? And I run 28 degrees with my setup.
This EWP is a bit more tricky. The major cost for it's manufacturers JWP/JPR is the custom housing right?
Well let's put this in perspective.
At the urging of a few folks from the board, I called up Meziere and talked to one of their guys.
$369 Mezier electric water pump, as seen on www.ls1speed.com
-lacks heater hose provision
-lacks t-stat
-not reverse cooled
BUT, they can sell you a fitting that you can use so you can use your heating system.
BUT, you can buy an inline thermostat, I have the info for that too.
BUT, it's not reverse cooled!
I'm guessing you could do Meziere setup for around $500 with the possibility of some fabrication work. Guy from Mezier mentioned an issue of possibly not being able to keep the powersteering. Not sure why. Also, Terry (Burger) said ot me on the fone Friday that there may be other bracket issues. Perhaps he could elaborate.
So in some respects my findings validate the costs behind the JWP/JPR water pump. Aeroquip fittings are not cheap either.
Do I think that braided lines and Aeroquip fittings are necessary? Not necessarily... Are they nice? Oh yes.
I have heard of two LS1's in California running Meziere setups, but have no data on them.
If the gain with the Meziere was like 5rwhp for $500, I think I will not do it. Sounds like the gains from reverse cooling could be bigger, how much timing do LT1's run at WOT? 38 I think? And I run 28 degrees with my setup.
12-23-2001, 12:30 AM
#105
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Re: The LS1 EWP is out not bashing. 850 just seems excessive to not have any SOLID claims to back up the performance. Saying 2 99 TA's gained 2 tenths and blah, blah, blah wont cut it for me at least....maybe im too synical. I mean, what happened to the "race" version. Thats what would sell. How much pressure is in the lines? too much for a hose clamp and standard rubber hose. sure...i bet. $200 worth of braided line looks GREAT!, but not everyone gives a **** about that.
STILL, i say put your money where your mouth is (and not in 3 months...now) and put some of these out with ACCURATE dyno and track tests.
Ryan
STILL, i say put your money where your mouth is (and not in 3 months...now) and put some of these out with ACCURATE dyno and track tests.
Ryan
12-23-2001, 12:40 AM
#107
TECH Fanatic
Re: The LS1 EWP is out Oh Man.. This thread has me Rolling on the floor. One of funniest LS1 posts I've read to date. Some of the replies are Priceless.. <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">
I look forward to independent testing. I think the price has to come down eventually.. It is a very nice looking piece. <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">
I do see this as a great mod for specific applications tho. I look forward to being proven a cynic.
I look forward to independent testing. I think the price has to come down eventually.. It is a very nice looking piece. <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">
I do see this as a great mod for specific applications tho. I look forward to being proven a cynic.
12-23-2001, 01:14 AM
#108
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Re: The LS1 EWP is out Question: What is the TOTAL system weight vs. the TOTAL weight of what is removed on your systems?
Comment: From nothing by-passed to a 60% underdrive I run with no A/C and no P/S was WAY less than 2-3.5 tenths/mph, so, I am skeptical. However, I would LOVE to be proved wrong and would become darn interested.
Comment: I'd take a consistent 10 or 11-sec car and one that's closer to stock and run them back-to-back, with and without the pump. You'd have to factor if anything was by-passed already or if an underdrive was already installed. I personally don't care what the dyno says...I want timeslips.
Comment: For less than $850 (on a GP), I KNOW that my PA Racing chromemoly k-member and a-arms took off 44.5#'s off the nose, and thus, helped me out definitively.
I appreciate all the time you guys have spent developing it. If you can better "prove" to the crowd the benefits and performance gains, you probably will have a waiting list. If not,...
Take care. Dave
[ December 23, 2001: Message edited by: RUQWIKR ]</p>
Comment: From nothing by-passed to a 60% underdrive I run with no A/C and no P/S was WAY less than 2-3.5 tenths/mph, so, I am skeptical. However, I would LOVE to be proved wrong and would become darn interested.
Comment: I'd take a consistent 10 or 11-sec car and one that's closer to stock and run them back-to-back, with and without the pump. You'd have to factor if anything was by-passed already or if an underdrive was already installed. I personally don't care what the dyno says...I want timeslips.
Comment: For less than $850 (on a GP), I KNOW that my PA Racing chromemoly k-member and a-arms took off 44.5#'s off the nose, and thus, helped me out definitively.
I appreciate all the time you guys have spent developing it. If you can better "prove" to the crowd the benefits and performance gains, you probably will have a waiting list. If not,...
Take care. Dave
[ December 23, 2001: Message edited by: RUQWIKR ]</p>
12-23-2001, 01:24 AM
#109
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Re: The LS1 EWP is out [quote]Originally posted by Visceral:
<strong>
*DING!*
*cough.*
My car will be at MTI for roughly 4-5 more weeks. Any time after they get the heads back from ARE, the car will be available for a rough approximation of what I offered earlier. *IF* anyone wants to pay MTI to program the computer for more power to take advantage of the Rev. cooling after that, I'd be glad to let them see what its worth. Im sure Jeff can work us up a great deal.
chris</strong><hr></blockquote>
Really, they should be jumping on this. Heck, if it works, they(MTI) will be recommending them to their other(some high dollar) customers. Great advertising , and MTI and your car would seem far enough removed to be independent to most everyone i would think. And MTI is knowledgable enough about LS1's also to make it fair.
As for slamming or favoritism here, i don't see it at all. And i am in California and not associated in any way commercially with anyone here. I think people need to keep being honest and not worry about what people think so much. Otherwise this site goes south IMO. People appreciate honest opinions whether they are posting here or not. They want to really feel they are spending their money to their benefit. And this *is* a lot of money for LS1 owners, period.
I think Viscerals offer is pretty fair and would be believed by most. <img src="graemlins/gr_angel.gif" border="0" alt="[angel]" />
<strong>
*DING!*
*cough.*
My car will be at MTI for roughly 4-5 more weeks. Any time after they get the heads back from ARE, the car will be available for a rough approximation of what I offered earlier. *IF* anyone wants to pay MTI to program the computer for more power to take advantage of the Rev. cooling after that, I'd be glad to let them see what its worth. Im sure Jeff can work us up a great deal.
chris</strong><hr></blockquote>
Really, they should be jumping on this. Heck, if it works, they(MTI) will be recommending them to their other(some high dollar) customers. Great advertising , and MTI and your car would seem far enough removed to be independent to most everyone i would think. And MTI is knowledgable enough about LS1's also to make it fair.
As for slamming or favoritism here, i don't see it at all. And i am in California and not associated in any way commercially with anyone here. I think people need to keep being honest and not worry about what people think so much. Otherwise this site goes south IMO. People appreciate honest opinions whether they are posting here or not. They want to really feel they are spending their money to their benefit. And this *is* a lot of money for LS1 owners, period.
I think Viscerals offer is pretty fair and would be believed by most. <img src="graemlins/gr_angel.gif" border="0" alt="[angel]" />
12-23-2001, 02:51 AM
#110
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Re: The LS1 EWP is out JS, take an English class, please! The mezere will not work with power steering and will require you to relocate your alternator in to a custom bracket to get belt tension. The mezere pump isn't really an option.
The JRP pump will put out around 8-10rwhp. If $850 is too much money for 8-10rwhp for you, then don't buy one. No one cares. The way this thing is designed they can't sell it for any less than they are, and production will probably be such that they'd only want to sell a few units anyway (its always more profitable to sell fewer units for more money).
If you don't like their terms do something about it and build your own like I did, or move on with your life.
The JRP pump will put out around 8-10rwhp. If $850 is too much money for 8-10rwhp for you, then don't buy one. No one cares. The way this thing is designed they can't sell it for any less than they are, and production will probably be such that they'd only want to sell a few units anyway (its always more profitable to sell fewer units for more money).
If you don't like their terms do something about it and build your own like I did, or move on with your life.
12-23-2001, 07:28 AM
#111
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Re: The LS1 EWP is out FWIW: I'll test the pump on one of my customers cars (modified and/or unmodified), on the dyno same day with anyone present that wants to be there. If it gives us the claimed increase I will be the first on here to say that it is well worth the $. If the claims are backed up, 25 rwhp for $850 is worth the $ big time!
JFP/JPR, we are close enough (goegraphically) to do the testing. Let me know...
Mikey
JFP/JPR, we are close enough (goegraphically) to do the testing. Let me know...
Mikey
12-23-2001, 09:08 AM
#112
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Re: The LS1 EWP is out Maybe I'm missing something here. Id do it if I had an LS1, but I dont, so cant help. Why doesnt someone just fork out the $850 and go test it... end of story.
I just find it funny that everyone is upset at the price. Your willing to put out $1k-$2k for ported cylinder heads, and if you know what your doing you could get the same results for about $200 and port your own heads. For those who dont know how, they have to spend the $$$ to have someone do it for them. I dont hear anyone complaining about the price of heads... Yeah , yeah, I know... you get more of a gain with the heads than you will with an EWP, but thats your choice on what you spend your money on. You spend $2k+ on a rear that wont gain any HP, and if you have a welder you could build your own 12 bolt for less than 1/2 the price tag.
If you dont like the $850 price tag this water pump, then dont buy one. Go make your own. But be prepared to go thru months of testing, fabricating and desgining things.. in the end, I bet you wont save all that much, and may still end up with an inferior product. Joe and Jay put alot of time and money into this EWP to bring you guys and girls a dependable product. After all that you have the ballz to bitch about the price? I just don't get that... I know some of you are very smart guys, go make your own if you dont want to spend the $$. Just MHO...
Brian
[ December 23, 2001: Message edited by: Projectz28 ]</p>
I just find it funny that everyone is upset at the price. Your willing to put out $1k-$2k for ported cylinder heads, and if you know what your doing you could get the same results for about $200 and port your own heads. For those who dont know how, they have to spend the $$$ to have someone do it for them. I dont hear anyone complaining about the price of heads... Yeah , yeah, I know... you get more of a gain with the heads than you will with an EWP, but thats your choice on what you spend your money on. You spend $2k+ on a rear that wont gain any HP, and if you have a welder you could build your own 12 bolt for less than 1/2 the price tag.
If you dont like the $850 price tag this water pump, then dont buy one. Go make your own. But be prepared to go thru months of testing, fabricating and desgining things.. in the end, I bet you wont save all that much, and may still end up with an inferior product. Joe and Jay put alot of time and money into this EWP to bring you guys and girls a dependable product. After all that you have the ballz to bitch about the price? I just don't get that... I know some of you are very smart guys, go make your own if you dont want to spend the $$. Just MHO...
Brian
[ December 23, 2001: Message edited by: Projectz28 ]</p>
12-23-2001, 09:41 AM
#113
Re: The LS1 EWP is out Amen Brian (Project Z).
JS, I mentioned JD's for the same reasons that you specified. If people are looking for an independant testor, what better than a shop that doesn't deal with ls1's to test it on their dyno.
I'm not saying they should screw around with anything, I'm just saying use their dyno as a neutral testing facility, that's all.
As a person who performs countless numbers of precision analytical tests daily, I can tell you that there are ways to skew the results. I'm not saying that Cartek or MTI would, but it could happen. I know I don't have to go into what their motives might be, but why take the chance.
JS, I mentioned JD's for the same reasons that you specified. If people are looking for an independant testor, what better than a shop that doesn't deal with ls1's to test it on their dyno.
I'm not saying they should screw around with anything, I'm just saying use their dyno as a neutral testing facility, that's all.
As a person who performs countless numbers of precision analytical tests daily, I can tell you that there are ways to skew the results. I'm not saying that Cartek or MTI would, but it could happen. I know I don't have to go into what their motives might be, but why take the chance.
12-23-2001, 10:19 AM
#114
Re: The LS1 EWP is out My english isnt the best thats for sure
But I get by,Terry.
I dont understand why I need to be insulted though, in a post that has nothing to w/my english?
IMO,Stick to the topic.....
LEAVE THE INSULTS AT THE DOOR....
Anyway...
I like the way this post is going.
LS1-TECH is a great board and I see a good thing comming from this post.Topics r staying focused for the most part.Moderators u get a BIG thumbs up for staring this Tech Forum....
Jay/Joe get the pump tested independantly..
Once u prove its usfulness,You'll sell a **** load of them...
JS
Englich Major,Ummmmm No!!
But I get by,Terry.
I dont understand why I need to be insulted though, in a post that has nothing to w/my english?
IMO,Stick to the topic.....
LEAVE THE INSULTS AT THE DOOR....
Anyway...
I like the way this post is going.
LS1-TECH is a great board and I see a good thing comming from this post.Topics r staying focused for the most part.Moderators u get a BIG thumbs up for staring this Tech Forum....
Jay/Joe get the pump tested independantly..
Once u prove its usfulness,You'll sell a **** load of them...
JS
Englich Major,Ummmmm No!!
12-23-2001, 10:49 AM
#115
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Re: The LS1 EWP is out A) This doesnt make any sense [quote]"I agree this pump needs to be tested INDEPENDANTLY
I also agree w/a dyno session,a w/b and LS1 edit u can extract HP from a N/A setup along w/a FI setup w/the pump."<hr></blockquote> Just getting an non-custom programmed car on a dyno with a WB and LS1-Edit will exract 3-5rwhp. Then any gains with the pump will be useless since no one will have proof that its the pump, not the tuning.
B) I think Visceral DID offer to buy the pump to test on the conditions that it must work. And John offered to pay 1700 for the pump if it worked. Seems fair and independent to me. Neither one of them have anything to gain by the sales of the product, nor do they have any ties to the shop that made it. If a bolt-on or near stock car will do the same, then we will have a good test.
Please read the "EWP Dyno Showdown" thread in this section. There's good testing ideas there.
I also agree w/a dyno session,a w/b and LS1 edit u can extract HP from a N/A setup along w/a FI setup w/the pump."<hr></blockquote> Just getting an non-custom programmed car on a dyno with a WB and LS1-Edit will exract 3-5rwhp. Then any gains with the pump will be useless since no one will have proof that its the pump, not the tuning.
B) I think Visceral DID offer to buy the pump to test on the conditions that it must work. And John offered to pay 1700 for the pump if it worked. Seems fair and independent to me. Neither one of them have anything to gain by the sales of the product, nor do they have any ties to the shop that made it. If a bolt-on or near stock car will do the same, then we will have a good test.
Please read the "EWP Dyno Showdown" thread in this section. There's good testing ideas there.
12-23-2001, 07:07 PM
#116
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Re: The LS1 EWP is out [quote]
If you dont like the $850 price tag this water pump, then dont buy one. Go make your own. But be prepared to go thru months of testing, fabricating and desgining things..
<hr></blockquote>
Actually I have about $275 and 8-10hrs of TOTAL labor in mine. It works really well as long as you don't drive on the highway on a really cool night. <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">
If you dont like the $850 price tag this water pump, then dont buy one. Go make your own. But be prepared to go thru months of testing, fabricating and desgining things..
<hr></blockquote>
Actually I have about $275 and 8-10hrs of TOTAL labor in mine. It works really well as long as you don't drive on the highway on a really cool night. <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">
12-23-2001, 08:07 PM
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Re: The LS1 EWP is out Terry, do me a favor in the future, and DO NOT quote your speculated performance numbers of my pump system from the R&D dyno testing that you have done with your pump. Do not compare the two, they are totally different. You're not even officially reverse cooled, I told you what had to be done to achieve it, I was trying to help YOU.
:Terry's quote:
"The JRP pump will put out around 8-10rwhp. If $850 is too much money for 8-10rwhp for you"
:Terry's quote:
"The JRP pump will put out around 8-10rwhp. If $850 is too much money for 8-10rwhp for you"
12-23-2001, 08:07 PM
#118
Re: The LS1 EWP is out [quote]Originally posted by Terry Burger:
<strong>
Actually I have about $275 and 8-10hrs of TOTAL labor in mine. It works really well as long as you don't drive on the highway on a really cool night. <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0"> </strong><hr></blockquote>
So in other words, it doesn't work. PERIOD
<strong>
Actually I have about $275 and 8-10hrs of TOTAL labor in mine. It works really well as long as you don't drive on the highway on a really cool night. <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0"> </strong><hr></blockquote>
So in other words, it doesn't work. PERIOD
12-23-2001, 08:52 PM
#119
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Re: The LS1 EWP is out [quote]
So in other words, it doesn't work. PERIOD
<hr></blockquote>
No, actually it works really well. The engine just gets cooler than I'd like on the highway. I only put it together to get it on the dyno and see what reserve flow cooling would do for me. Needless to say I haven't been motivated to finish it lately. <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">
So in other words, it doesn't work. PERIOD
<hr></blockquote>
No, actually it works really well. The engine just gets cooler than I'd like on the highway. I only put it together to get it on the dyno and see what reserve flow cooling would do for me. Needless to say I haven't been motivated to finish it lately. <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">
12-23-2001, 08:56 PM
#120
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Re: The LS1 EWP is out [quote]
Terry, do me a favor in the future, and DO NOT quote your speculated performance numbers of my pump system from the R&D dyno testing that you have done with your pump. Do not compare the two, they are totally different. You're not even officially reverse cooled, I told you what had to be done to achieve it, I was trying to help YOU.
<hr></blockquote>
I'm not using my test data to evaluate your pump, although I'd be dishonest if I didn't say I was slightly biased. I think 8-10rwhp is a realistic figure, and I'm trying to help YOU make realistic claims. As I said in an earlier post, $850 for a solid 8-10rwhp is a GOOD deal for a lot of people.
Terry, do me a favor in the future, and DO NOT quote your speculated performance numbers of my pump system from the R&D dyno testing that you have done with your pump. Do not compare the two, they are totally different. You're not even officially reverse cooled, I told you what had to be done to achieve it, I was trying to help YOU.
<hr></blockquote>
I'm not using my test data to evaluate your pump, although I'd be dishonest if I didn't say I was slightly biased. I think 8-10rwhp is a realistic figure, and I'm trying to help YOU make realistic claims. As I said in an earlier post, $850 for a solid 8-10rwhp is a GOOD deal for a lot of people.