[quote]Originally posted by Projectz28:
<strong>Maybe I'm missing something here. Id do it if I had an LS1, but I dont, so cant help. Why doesnt someone just fork out the $850 and go test it... end of story..........After all that you have the ballz to bitch about the price? I just don't get that... I know some of you are very smart guys, go make your own if you dont want to spend the $$. Just MHO...

Brian

[ December 23, 2001: Message edited by: Projectz28 ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

Brian...

Back up for a second. I dont think that we *are all* upset over the price. I dont even think that most of us are upset at all. We have nothing to lose by Joe advertising his new pump.
What we are is concerned. Alot of us have owned cars with electric waterpumps. We have seen the gains of *those* pumps. We then see the gains that Joe/Jay are advertising from just bolting on the pump. Those are pretty fantastic gains. 25 hp or two tenths from a waterpump? If this is true, I think most of us wouldn't complain about the price. I've seen the pump (pictures), and I think it looks like an 850$ piece of work. We just cant understand how there could be 25 hp in the waterpump and cooling withOUT altering the ignition maps. Or for that matter, with extra advance. So we would like the proof of an objective test *prior* to spending a non-refundable 850$ plus install. If you are angry at us for not explicitly trusting Joe/Jay about these claims...fine. Fire away. I just dont have 850$ to spend on 6-9 hp. Plain and simple. I would make financial room for it for 17+ hp. I will either wait for someone I know well to risk it and dyno the before/after on a similar car to mine... or let Joe/Jay use my car as a test subject. I figure MTI and I are as objective as it gets. No biggie. Im not upset <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0"> Neither is Raughammer, jmX, PSJ, etc. Terry is upset, but not at Joe/Jay. We've never figured out what fills Terry with such...uh...verve? We probably dont want to know <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">

chris
who is in posession of enough red wine to avoid any upset for a *LONG* time.

 

The set up lookds really nice!

Joe Prince <img src="graemlins/gr_hail.gif" border="0" alt="[hail]" />

If the EWP can pull the 25rwhp on a heavily mod'd car or 15 rwhp on a bolt on car it's worth it.

As to the folks saying THAT'S $850 FOR A WATER PUMP...so what if it makes 25rwhp? That's about the going rate for LS1 hp. In fact a Corsa or Borla cat back exhaust and aftermarket Y pipe will set you just about as much and probably not get as much hp as the EWP may.

Since the pump can actually be mount else where maybe it can even be moved to a new location for better weight transfer?

Jay and Joe <img src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Where do you recommend mounting the pump?

Where are the other locations it can be mounted?

[ December 23, 2001: Message edited by: 99 Black Bird T/A ]</p>

 

[quote]
Terry is upset
<hr></blockquote>

You'll know if I ever get upset. I just enjoy spirited conversation. <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">

 

Black Bird, First of all.. Thank you...

"Since the pump can actually be mount else where maybe it can even be moved to a new location for better weight transfer?

Jay and Joe

Where do you recommend mounting the pump?

Where are the other locations it can be mounted?"

Second, is that I have tossed around a few different ideas for optional mounting placement for FI cars, Julio found a place down in the frame rail behind the Cruise control system. This pump housing unit can be mounted vertically or horizontal. Keeping weight transfer in mind, the windshield back is the best place to move weight to and I was thinking of a crazy idea to swap the line routing towards the pass side then back, I would drill two 1 inch holes (grometed) through the lower fire wall under the HVAC box and mount the unit inside the car above the pass side kick panel. I haven't seriously scouted out the routing but I thought that may be an interesting placement, it's a very quiet electric motor. I will go to the machine shop and check the weight of all the parts as assembled and have some figures to work with, honestly, I don't think everything accumilitavely will be lighter than the stock unit. The one tubular prototype I built weights a mear 1.6 lbs vs 3.8 billet? Bob 2of3 has held the tubular one. I will have all the weights figured out and post it.

[ December 23, 2001: Message edited by: Joe Prince ]</p>

 

[quote]Originally posted by Visceral:
<strong>who is in posession of enough red wine to avoid any upset for a *LONG* time.</strong><hr></blockquote>

And just where did you get that and what kind is it??? Perhaps if you sent some Joe's way he might be more agreeable to using you as a test car??!!! <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0">

 

FWIW, I'll say this for bolt on hp per $. Lets say LT headers give you 20 hp for $1000 on average. A LS6 intake can give you 10 hp for $500. Of course everything depends on many factors. But, using this way of thinking the pump should be putting out 15-20 hp for the price, or cost around $500. If either one of the above scenearios were the case, I would buy it. The average consumer isn't concerned about anything but $$ per hp. This should be advertised as "for the hard core with deep pockets". No flames intended, but it's just plain to expensive for the minimal gains it gives. Who would buy FLP headers if they gave you 6-10 hp? No one.

 

After reading all these posts and thinking a bit about the subject, I honestly have to retract my original dissatisfaction over the $850 price tag - it's a bit high but fair if the performance claims are valid.

If I can see a couple honest/independant dyno charts and some track slips that show a "guranteed" .2 and about 20 Rwhp, I would most likely but one of these EWP setup this coming summer !

I'd also have to think that a GP would get the price down a bit too. I like the analogy of Headers for $1000 and only getting .2 tenths or so in the 1/4 mile - good comparison.

I definitely think this pump needs some independant testing and it needs to be done soon. IMO, it is just wrong to publish some of the performance claims and then not back them up with some independant testing - especially from someone like John (Raughammer) who would pay you double for the unit if it performs - and John is highly regarded on this and the other board for his awesome track acheivements and honesty. Lets get this testing done guys !

Regrads,
Mitch R.

 

[quote]Originally posted by Visceral:
<strong>

Brian...

Back up for a second. I dont think that we *are all* upset over the price. I dont even think that most of us are upset at all. We have nothing to lose by Joe advertising his new pump.
What we are is concerned. Alot of us have owned cars with electric waterpumps. We have seen the gains of *those* pumps. We then see the gains that Joe/Jay are advertising from just bolting on the pump. Those are pretty fantastic gains. 25 hp or two tenths from a waterpump? If this is true, I think most of us wouldn't complain about the price. I've seen the pump (pictures), and I think it looks like an 850$ piece of work. We just cant understand how there could be 25 hp in the waterpump and cooling withOUT altering the ignition maps. Or for that matter, with extra advance. So we would like the proof of an objective test *prior* to spending a non-refundable 850$ plus install. If you are angry at us for not explicitly trusting Joe/Jay about these claims...fine. Fire away. I just dont have 850$ to spend on 6-9 hp. Plain and simple. I would make financial room for it for 17+ hp. I will either wait for someone I know well to risk it and dyno the before/after on a similar car to mine... or let Joe/Jay use my car as a test subject. I figure MTI and I are as objective as it gets. No biggie. Im not upset <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0"> Neither is Raughammer, jmX, PSJ, etc. Terry is upset, but not at Joe/Jay. We've never figured out what fills Terry with such...uh...verve? We probably dont want to know <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">

chris
who is in posession of enough red wine to avoid any upset for a *LONG* time.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Chris, I'm not angry at anyone. I just dont agree with everyone wanting independant testing. But after looking back thru this thread, I see alot of people basically saying... Its a water pump, NO WAY it will perform like that, prove it. I compared this to my water pump. I have a Meziere EWP on my LT1. Now the time and energy that went into that pump could have been done in someones driveway on 1 Saturday afternoon. Its already a reverse cooled system and the pump still costs $200. Install time is abot 30 min and its a no brainer. Average gain from one of these on an LT1 is 5-10 RWHP. I just dont understand why people dont belive the gains that can be made by a similar set up on an LS1 that has a conventional cooling system. When Dynatech came out with their new LT header for the LT1, I didnt see people telling Dynatech to put some out there for "independant testing". As with any mod you do, gains from a mod will be different on every car, no 2 cars are the same. Joe and Jay have said that 25 HP gain can be made by using this pump. So if you put it on and only get 20 does that mean they lied to you? No, your motor obviously has some differences and didnt get "what they claimed". If you knew the mods I had on my car, I can tell you now that you would say I was lying. No way an LT1 can run that fast in the 1/4 on stock programming and stock heads and a "mild" cam. I've already heard it. I've had people ask me if I have a 50 shot cheater on the car, because they dont belive it runs 112+ in the 1/4 on stock heads. To be honest with you, I find it hard to belive myself. I have never seen an LT1 run trap speeds like an LS1 with out more work. My motor obviously has some differances and gained more, mod for mod with another car, with a similar set up.

I just see it like this, you know that Joe and Jay are not gonna lie. There are thousands of people one these boards that they are not gonna fool. There are way too many smart guys(and girls <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0"> ) here, and they are not gonna be fooled. How many head/cam packages are out there? For example, lets say one says you will pick up 75 RWHP with this set up. Why dont I see people asking for "independant" testing of that particualr package to see if it really does pick up 75 HP. If it only picks up 63 HP on your car, does that mean they lied about their claims? No, you car just responded differently to that particular package.

They got 25 hp from this set up and they want $850 to sell you the same setup. If you dont think its worth it, and dont think you can get the same gains, then dont buy it. I'm not trying to ba dick here, I just dont see it the same way as others. Yes, I think $850 is expensive for a waterpump, but I dont have a doubt in my mind that their claims are true. If you pick up 17HP from this set up, that doesnt mean they fluffed thier numbers. Your car just didnt respond as well.

Chris, your point is understood. I can see why you would want testing done. But why dont you buy one and test it yourself? Then come report to ohers what you got. If your not willing to do that then maybe this pump is not for you. I have just never seen a new product to the market get this much demand for independant testing. If it was $550 I bet no one would make this demand. The LS1 EWP is obviously expensive to make. Joe and Jay dont want to put on out there with out the best of the best parts. I dont blame them. In fact I find that very respectable. It make me look at this and see they only want the best of the best. And to get that, your gonna have to pay $850. If you dont like it, then dont buy it. Thats just how I see it. An when I say "you" in this post, im not refering to you inparticular, I'm saying anyone who is intrested in the JPR/JFP LS1 EWP, or anyone with enough intrest to read this thread. Do I make any sense here or am I just rambling again
<img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0"> . BTW, Im a fan of a good red wine too... its called Mad Dog 20/20 <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0"> <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0"> <img src="graemlins/gr_chug.gif" border="0" alt="[chug]" />

Brian

[ December 24, 2001: Message edited by: Projectz28 ]</p>

 

[quote]Originally posted by ls1fun:
<strong>

And just where did you get that and what kind is it??? Perhaps if you sent some Joe's way he might be more agreeable to using you as a test car??!!! <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0"> </strong><hr></blockquote>

Its not worth THAT much ;-)
Bought it at the local plonk shop and its some great italian sangiovese from a vinyard we visited last year. They had it on sale and I had to buy by the case <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">

I am suprised so far that Joe and Jay will gladly answer how they built the pump, how much effort they put into it, and make sure everyone understands that Terry doesnt speak for any of the technology they offer. But they dont seem to have any reaction at all to the request for some independant testing. Negative reaction, positive reaction... not ANY reaction. Its almost as if they are ignoring it. Problem here is that they have made some claims about the product that they cant back out of. I sincerely hope they have no desire or need to back out of those claims. They could just say "Guys, we arent going to do that." or "Guys, this is what we will do."

That they wont seems really ... odd.

chris

 

[quote]Originally posted by Projectz28:
<strong>

Chris, I agree with you to an extent. But after looking back thru this thread, I see alot of people basically saying... Its a water pump, not worth $850. I compared this to my water pump. I have a Meziere EWP on my LT1. Now the time and energy that went into that pump could have been done in someones driveway on 1 Saturday afternoon. Its already a reverse cooled system and the pump still costs $200. Install time is abot 30 min and its a no brainer. Average gain from one ofe these on an LT1 is 5-10 RWHP. I just dont understand why people dont belive the gains that can be made by a similar set up on an LS1 that has a conventional cooling system.</strong>

I think everyone here believes the thing would make at least 5-10hp. I dont think thats under dispute. If someone disputes *that*, they need to do better research.
<strong>
When Dynatech came out with their new LT header for the LT1, I didnt see people telling Dynatech to put some out there for "independent testing".
</strong>
But two things were importantly different there. First, its a product very very similar to others that already exist for the very same car. In the case of my Grotts, I didnt even ask what the power benefit was "claimed" to be. I could have guessed. Second, Dynatech does not control the reverse cooled EWP market. At this point, JPR effectively does. We have no other companies claims to compare. If Grott claimed 20hp, TTS 22 hp, FLP 25hp, and Dynatech 50hp... we would just be able to say "Hey, they are full of sh*t, but the header is nice, so I'll buy it and expect 20hp."
<strong>
As with any mod you do, gains from a mod will be differebt on every car, No 2 cars are the same. Joe and Jay have said that 25 HP gain can be made by using this pump. So if you put it on and only get 20 does that mean they lied to you? No, your motor obviously has some differences and didnt get "what they claimed".
</strong>
I totally understand that. Why did I have a 396hp stock head SS and others with the same mods just make 375? I have no idea. If JPR says "25hp" and I make 17hp or more, Ive many times said Im tickled pink. The dyno is not *the* most precise tool, even back to back.
<strong>
If you knew the mods I had on my car, I can tell you now that you would say I was lying. No way an LT1 can run that fast in the 1/4 on stock programming and stock heads. I've already heard it. I've had people ask me if I have a 50 shot cheater on the car, because they dont belive it runs 112+ in the 1/4 on stock heads. To be honest with you, I find it hard to belive myself. I have never seen an LT1 run trap speeds like an LS1 with out more work. My motor obviously has some differances and gained more, mod for mod with another car, with a similar set up.
</strong>
I was around to see Randy Brown run low low low 12s with nothing but a cam and some long tubes and other bolt ons. I really dont put as much stock as others in track times. Im more of a dyno *****. And if you said your car made 400 hp with stock heads, I could chuckle. But I wouldnt call "BS" on a board or something. I dont have anything to gain. In this case though, I believe strongly that history contradicts JPRs claims and so I think ppl asking for objective proof is reasonable if they are being asked to part with $850. I would go so far as to say that I am not objective. I *want* this pump to be worth 17+ hp. I would love to pay $850 and get 17+ hp at this level. Thats really really cheap HP at the level some of us are playing at. So call me unobjective, but not against JPRs claims.
<strong>
I just see it like this, you know that Joe and Jay are not gonna lie. There are thousands of people one these boards that they are not gonna fool. There are way too many smart guys(and girls <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0"> ) here, and they are not gonna be fooled.
</strong>
Agreed. I dont think they are going to lie. But they can certainly be selective about results. Again... If they had said it made 14hp gain, we wouldnt be having this conversation. 25 just doesnt seem realistic to alot of folks here. If they do claim 25, a few folks will believe it and buy it. I cant afford to take the risk that I see.
<strong>
How many head/cam packages are out there? For example, lets say one says you will pick up 75 RWHP with this set up. Why dont I see people asking for "independant" testing of that particualr package to see if it really does pick up 75 HP. If it only picks up 63 HP on your car, does that mean they lied about their claims? No, you car just responded differently to that particular package.
</strong>
There are far more heads/cam packages out there and many brands, just like Dynatech Headers. I didnt even ask ARE for HP claims. There was little risk with my money that I would get less than what I expected. And even if I did, I could recover the $$$ by just selling the heads.
<strong>
They got 25 hp from this set up and they want $850 to sell you the same setup. If you dont think its worth it, and dont think you can get the same gains, then dont buy it. I'm not trying to ba dick here, I just dont see it the same way as others. Yes, I think $850 is expensive for a waterpump, but I dont have a doubt in my mind that their claims are true. If you pick up 17HP from this set up, that doesnt mean they fluffed thier numbers. Your car just didnt respond as well.
</strong>
Hehehe... I dont want to risk it at this point without any remedy for me if it only makes 7 hp. If it makes 17hp, it would be 850$ well spent, and I would think my car *did* respond well.
<strong>
Chris, your point is understood. I can see why you would want testing done. But why dont you buy one and test it yourself? Then come report to ohers what you got. If your not willing to do that then maybe this pump is not for you.</strong>
I offered to buy it... IF they would refund my money if it wasnt anywhere near what they claimed... Go back and check out my proposition. I'd pay them for the EWP same as anyone else. Or MORE if it did any better.

JPR is in a position to remove the risk for me in purchasing this pump and providing an objective testbed to everyone. If they truly believe that 17+ hp is very likely, I think they would stand to gain alot by taking me up on my offer, privately or publicly. Personally, I cant see the downside for them if this thing is as good as they say it is. Maybe they know something I dont. Maybe they know alot I dont. <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">

Chris
who stays the f&*% away from fermented malt for everyones good <img src="gr_tounge.gif" border="0">
<hr></blockquote>

 

I beleive that JPR has a waiting list of a hundred or more people..

When they pay for the item and install it..These people will give feedback and then everyone who is looking for independant testing will be satisfied one way or the other.

I think the dyno's done to date on two different cars ranged from 26 rwhp and 14 lb/ft of torque to 14 rwhp and 10 lb/ft of torque.

Dynos swing like that in my humble opinion.

The 2ths and 2 mph is more indictative of the performance gain. Sounds good.

Cuts these guys who built this a break..let the paying customers who have ordered this product put it on and see whats up..

I wish both Jay and Joe the best of luck.

My personal opinion..it will deliver the improvement.

 

If you all think the Electric water pump is over priced think of it this way. I don't know if someone metioned it in this post yet I am to lazy to read it all. FLP headers cost about 1200 dollars and they give about a 20-25 RWHP gain. The water pump gives you about the same game for less price. Maybe because its smaller you all don't feel u are getting 850 dollars worth? Dono .. <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0"> I am going to get one as soon as I pay off my CC LOL!! <img src="graemlins/fluffy.gif" border="0" alt="[Fluffy]" />

 

chris,
i have clearly stated in the pastthe the 25rwhp was with modified timing and fuel curves, we got 14rwhp with STOCK programming. The problem with John's "deal" if you see what i replied to it about the 3 tenths increase which we have gotten with Stock 13 sec cars, won't happen with a 10-11 sec carbecause all it makes(frees up) is 25rwhp and at his hp/et it won't happen(his deal), so i figure that is moot. As far as independant testing there are some things going on about that.
An interesting observation all of you have no problem of comparing the miziere to ours and no prob with their price but they give you 9rwhp correct,and let's just say that we only get 15rwhp which is 50% more than they get, but with no provisions for anything else(practically) so let's add up what it would cost to get theirs to work.anybody have a clue

lets add things up

370.00
185.00
165.00 Katech billet tensioner to aid in belt issues
all that equals 720.00 and you still need to buy a pair of fittings as per LS1 speeds website that are "extra" and you still don't have a heater or power steering, or a complete accssory bracketry or a belt either. so if you can get all that done for 130.00 then more power to you.and remember we haven't discussed reverse cooling either, but that's irrelevent to this cost discussion.
Even another analogy somebody said 17rwhp and headers give you 20rwhp. 1200.00 headers 850.00 water pump if you multiply 1200.00 by 75% which is 900.00 and if you multiply 20 by 75% you'll get 15 so if you can see my point i think you'll understand the cost factor and that just on a performance basis not including material.6061-T6
aluminum.

Jay

headers

 

Jay,

Im in full agreement with almost everything you said there. For instance, I never said I wanted a Meziere. I dont want to assemble the setup, as it doesnt have evreything I need. I have said many times that in *my* mind at least, you are the only player on the field. Second, I never complained about the price. In fact Ive mentioned that at my mod-level, 17+ hp for 850$ is an awesome deal. ESPECIALLY 17+ hp that has no downsides. No drivability loss, no reliablility loss. No need to further specialize the car (ie drag racing vs road racing vs autX, etc). Its a great value proposition. But I did hear 25hp. I am not worried about what the ET gains are for any car at any level. I heard 25hp <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0"> But then like I mentioned, I'd be satisfied if my car was just a little quirky and made 17 or more.

With stock tuning, Im at 411 through the catback. Through cutouts, I think Im at 425-435. Add 17... thats 442 to 452 hp on a heads/cam car with stock tuning. Lets assume that with LS1 edit, I can get another 5-15 hp. Thats 447-467 REAR WHEEL HP, realistically, if your claims are correct. Sure thats worth $850.

Chris

 

My initial summation of what it would cost to run a Meziere setup might not be comprehensive, I don't have a handle on everything need to convert over to an EWP on an LS1.

I'm wondering if the big gains will (only) be seen by adding a lot more timing to a reverse cooled setup. I have a feeling, nothing validated that low rwhp gains are to be realized by running a Meziere that is traditionally cooled.

 

[quote]Originally posted by Jay 95WS6:
<strong>chris,
i have clearly stated in the pastthe the 25rwhp was with modified timing and fuel curves, we got 14rwhp with STOCK programming. <hr></blockquote></strong>

So the pump freed up 14rwhp and the additional 11hp was made by playing with the timing/spark tables? Depending on the test vehicle, that's easy to believe, especially if it is a detonation prone vehicle. Were the timing/fueling tables optimized BEFORE the waterpump? It's just not fair to pick up 25rwhp and point to the pump when the pump isn't the only thing that was changed. Just saying "25rwhp gain" doesn't mean much unless we get the whole, and I mean WHOLE story. I believe the majority of the people are being mislead that a water pump change only will pick them up three+ tenths at the track. Those "stock" cars had a waterpump swap and a professional dyno tune, right?

[quote]<strong>The problem with John's "deal" if you see what i replied to it about the 3 tenths increase which we have gotten with Stock 13 sec cars, won't happen with a 10-11 sec carbecause all it makes(frees up) is 25rwhp and at his hp/et it won't happen(his deal), so i figure that is moot.<hr></blockquote></strong>

You're right, it does take more power to knock a tenth off the faster you go. John's car isn't a super high horsepower car as far as LS1s go. If anyone's car will react to having more power, it's his. His car is light, and making it down the track is all about power/weight and laying down a sixty foot. If a stock car is picking up more than three tenths, John's car should pick up AT LEAST a tenth and a half...at least. If he's going from 39x to 41x, he's gonna pick up. No doubt.

So what about Chris' dyno testing? If you're not cofident that anyone but your test cars can pick up three tenths, then how about the 17rwhp deal? Hmmm...if you think about it, how much did you pick up by JUST swapping water pumps...? So to really get 25rwhp you will need an $850 electric water pump and a $500+ dyno tune, correct? Did they only alter the fueling/timing tables to pick up those 3.5 tenths a the track? Were the cars on sticky tires? Where they automatics? What were the weather conditions exactly? If you picked up 3.5 tenths with this cold weather, the performance from lack of detonation will be even more dramatic during the hot months.

[quote]<strong>An interesting observation all of you have no problem of comparing the miziere to ours...<hr></blockquote></strong>

The difference is Meziere doesn't make claims to your car picking up 3.5 tenths with their pump. Their only claim is that it's electric and it will bolt up to your block. Not even one outlandish, or how John likes to say "SLPish" claim.

[quote]<strong>all that equals 720.00 and you still need to buy...<hr></blockquote></strong>

Your pump is $850 and you still have to get your car custom tuned to take advantage of it. What's the cheapest someone will professionally tune your car? Are you working on a waterpump/PCM package?

Don't take this post as a flame. I would be very happy to see your products do what you claim they will do. But at the same time, I believe it's obvious that the crawfish dance has already begun. <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0">

-Bernie

 

[quote]Originally posted by faster67:
<strong>[/qb]

Don't take this post as a flame. I would be very happy to see your products do what you claim they will do. But at the same time, I believe it's obvious that the crawfish dance has already begun. <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0">

-Bernie</strong><hr></blockquote>

The information about the PCM tuning to take full advantage of the cooling by the EWP was posted in full detail on LS1.com many months ago. Jay and Joe were very upfront about that. I haven't been keeping up <img src="graemlins/gr_zzz.gif" border="0" alt="[boring]" /> with all the details and even I knew about the PCM tuning.

This strikes me as something one does when doing heads and cam right along with the LS6 intake and headers, so all the PCM tuning could be done at heads and cam time if one planned things carefully.

What I want to know is has the EWP been tested with HPP3 tuning. That would be a real combo if the EWP allowed the leaner HPP3 fuel tables and additional timing.

I think we all need more information and I think some are being to quick to get entrenched in their views before seeing objective evidence. Just give it a little time...

 

If you all think the Electric water pump is over priced think of it this way. I don't know if someone metioned it in this post yet I am to lazy to read it all. FLP headers cost about 1200 dollars and they give about a 20-25 RWHP gain. The water pump gives you about the same game for less price. Maybe because its smaller you all don't feel u are getting 850 dollars worth? Dono .. <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0"> I am going to get one as soon as I pay off my CC LOL!! <img src="graemlins/fluffy.gif" border="0" alt="[Fluffy]" />

 

Chris, well I must say you make good points. I was comparing it to things that have a competitive market. The only other pump in the LS1 market is the Meziere, which is not even close, its a race only pump. I think we can all agree on that. Give Joe and Jay some time, its Christmas... I'm sure they will do something to prove what their pump is worth to you. But probably not gonna happen tomorrow, ya know.

 

Yeah... Im in no hurry. And if there is a waiting list of 100 ppl as shadowSS claims, then the info we are asking for will be forthcoming...

chris