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MTI's T1 vs C1 cams......

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Old 12-24-2001, 08:30 PM
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Default MTI's T1 vs C1 cams......

If the T1 and C1 cam make the same HP/TQ then why did MTI even make the C1 cam? There's got to be GOOD reason why they created it.....surely not to just beat up the valve train.

Does anyone know the REAL scoop on this?
Old 12-24-2001, 08:33 PM
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Default Re: MTI's T1 vs C1 cams......

Originally I think the T1 and B1 were originally made to be used with stock heads, but I think the C1 is more for the cars with ported and polished heads, I could be wrong though.
Old 12-24-2001, 10:01 PM
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Default Re: MTI's T1 vs C1 cams......

When I decided I wanted a cam.
I could have gone with the T1 or the B1. They were both more than proven.
After talking with Brooke (99 red hawk), he liked the T1 more than His B1 (Brooke ! ) Because of the upper mid range torque.
I did a LOT of home work.

The T1 and B1 were made by Lunati back then.
They were not known for their accuracy in grinding cams.
Jayson and MTI had done a lot of testing on different cams. Anything more than 224 just seemed to hurt the bottom end more than it helped on the top end.
Comp had just come out with it's Extreme lobes. Plus comp had a reputation as a company that ground cams "exactly". A trip to the cam doctor verified some of our concerns the Lunatis were not always "true" to their advertised specs while the Comp Cam cams were "on the money".

Comps Extreme ramps... they were opening faster than the Lunatis ramps. What I mean is the ramps were steeper. They would hold the valves closed just a tic longer. (this helps idle AND helps build MORE cylinder pressure on the compression stroke)
The valves were off their seat @ 50 the same as the lunati cams.. but they didnt open so soon BELOW 50 thous of lift.
Again, I was looking to IMPROVE on the T1/B1 series of cams.


I only found one other person on the web who had tried this cam, but he had motor probs right after installing it and never had a chance to try it out.

The desk top dyno had said that the Hammer cam would be better than the T1/B1.

My racing experiance told me it would be better.

I did NOT want to use the same cam as everyone else. Yet I wanted an "off the self" grind.

So.. with all this info in hand.
1. I wanted to stay around the PROVEN 221 duration. For RPM power in my RPM range.
2. I wanted the mid 500 lift because while it is high it is not excessive.
3. 112 lobe seperation. This number had proven itself to work in M6's with no tuning and A4's with some finaggling.
4. Comp cams had better ramps. Better for power AND idle. In an A4 this is even more important than with an M6.
5. The 222 duration coupled with the 112 L/S would keep my motor making power in the RPM range I was looking for.
6. Single spec cam. I had seen NO and have seen NO dual spec cams out perform a well set up single spec LS1 car. (N/A)

Could I have gone bigger? Sure. But why? This is/was my daily driver. I dont really care about HP and E.T. is my end all be all. This cam has helped me acheive all I needed to acieve at the time. While staying VERY streetable and effecient and POWERFUL.

So I chose the Comp Cam Extreme lobe cams ground on a 222/222 dur @ 50. and .566 lift lobe out of the comp cam catalog. I wanted it with 4 degrees of advance ground in for the timing chain issues we all have to deal with.

I have had buddies install this cam and Stage 2 heads in their M6' LS1's. ALL have dynoed between 421 rwhp up to 437.5 rwhp

The cam idles good. Makes GREAT power in the range I prefer. It peaks at 6300 on stock heads and on up to 6700 if you have good heads.

Closed up in a good exhuast it is REALLY smooth. In an race config'd exhaust car it will hit HARD and let everyone know your cammin'.

M6's cars dont need Custom programming usually.
A4's cars can get by with out programming, (usually) if they work at it, (I did for a while) but will benefit from custom programming.

After my success with it Jayson getting deluded with calls for the cam. He decided to market it and sells it under the name "C1" (Campbell one)
Most folks know it as the Hammer Cam. I prefer the moniker Hammer to C1. But, hey, it was nice of Jayson to give me some of the limelight. I aint complaining being in a group with Tony (T1) and Brooke (B1). Those guys over at MTI are aces.

MTI has since gone to selling ALL comp cams. The T1 and B1 they sell now are all Comp Cams Cams now.

There is more info on my web page pertaining to this cam and most others that us of LS1-dom' use. .


<img src="graemlins/camaro.gif" border="0" alt="[Chevrolet]" />
The Pepper

[ December 24, 2001: Message edited by: Raughammer ]</p>
Old 12-24-2001, 10:09 PM
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Default Re: MTI's T1 vs C1 cams......

Dang John, that is a VERY detailed reply! Let me summarize:

[quote]Posted by Raughammer:
I just wanted my own cam.
<hr></blockquote>

LOL! <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">

btw, the opening ramp rates are identical between the Comp and Lunatis, this was verified by the cam doctor at Comp when they started making the T1/B1 cams for MTI. Its the closing rates that are different, the Lunati's closed the valves just a tiny bit slower. Funny, the T1/B1 cams also spec out to 221.6 degrees actually. Lunati sure doesn't do a good job of providing accurate specs sometimes!

Tony
Old 12-24-2001, 10:43 PM
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Default Re: MTI's T1 vs C1 cams......

No Tony, all joking aside. I chose this cam for all the reasons I listed above.
At the time the Lunati's were not my cup of tea.

The cam cards and Cam Doctor told me the valves would open later and close faster.

I had heard of T1's being ground with bigger than 224 duration! True or not true, I will never know. I just knew that I wanted the cam I wanted and not some "pig in a poke" Lunati.

The cam that Comp got from MTI might have speced out at 221.6 but no telling WHAT cam folks actually got in their car or what that spec would have been if Jayson had sent the next T1 cam out of the box to Comp. 222.3? 220.7? who knows.

I DO know the cam I picked when I picked it was a good choice for me, for all the reason I mentioned in the post above.

But in truth, comparing the two cams now days. (C1 and T1) They are VERY similar now days. More the same than when they were the Lunati T1 and Comp Cam C1.

The C1 as compared to the T1 SHOULD make a "tic" more power....even now days. <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">

John C <img src="graemlins/gr_jest.gif" border="0" alt="[jester]" />
Old 12-24-2001, 11:04 PM
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Default Re: MTI's T1 vs C1 cams......

Hey, Merry Christmas guys! <img src="graemlins/gr_xmas.gif" border="0" alt="[santa]" />

<---- Hammer cam owner!

Casey
Old 12-25-2001, 02:08 AM
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Default Re: MTI's T1 vs C1 cams......

Whatever the true specs are on my T1 cam is fine with me.. It rocks... I have the Lunati version..
Old 12-25-2001, 02:20 AM
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Default Re: MTI's T1 vs C1 cams......

Just a note, I ordered a cam from thunder racing recently and they put the cam on the cam doctor, and included the printout specs with the cam, so you end up knowing exactly what you got. Very cool.

My thunder 224 cam ended up being a 225/224 .564/.563 on a 114lsa. <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[Burnout]" />
Old 12-25-2001, 06:41 AM
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Default Re: MTI's T1 vs C1 cams......

[quote]Originally posted by Raughammer:
<strong>Anything more than 224 just seemed to hurt the bottom end more than it helped on the top end.<hr></blockquote></strong>

As weird as it sounds, that's exactly why I used a 226/234 cam in my buddy's '98 SS. I set the car up for street racing and somtimes killing some bottom end is a good thing. Even with today's great tires, it's hard to find a compromise between a great sixty foot and going up in smoke on the street. I like to set them up to use as much throttle off the line as possible, it just leaves human error that much furter out of the picture. Too much power where the converter flashes and you have to pedal it out of the hole. With the STR turned down, not a ton of bottom end, Hoosier Quick Time Pros and some suspension tuning, I couldn't be happier with the results. I like to make it so anyone can drive the car and get good results. Set them up to leave hard, make the nitrous system easy to arm and you eliminate a bunch of the X-factor. After tuning the nitrous system, a WOT nitrous launch results in little to no tire spin. <img src="gr_eek2.gif" border="0"> That in my book is what wins street races. You can't win them all, but every little bit helps.

[quote]<strong>Single spec cam. I had seen NO and have seen NO dual spec cams out perform a well set up single spec LS1 car. (N/A)<hr></blockquote></strong>

I like exaust duration on a street car with N 2 O. <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0">

[quote]<strong>Could I have gone bigger? Sure. But why? This is/was my daily driver. I dont really care about HP and E.T. is my end all be all.<hr></blockquote></strong>

That was an excellent choice for your combination, and that's what it's all about. Combination, combination, combination. You don't set records by accident.

[quote]<strong>A4's cars can get by with out programming, (usually) if they work at it, (I did for a while) but will benefit from custom programming.<hr></blockquote></strong>

I was really expecting the car to run like a pig on the motor with stock programming. So far, I've been totally happy with the results. Granted, when I take it to the track it won't be anything impressive, especially N/A because I didn't build it to track race. But on the street, it always puts a smile on my face.

[quote]<strong>After my success with it Jayson getting deluded with calls for the cam. He decided to market it and sells it under the name "C1" (Campbell one).<hr></blockquote></strong>

I agree with Tony... <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0">

-Bernie

[ December 25, 2001: Message edited by: faster67 ]</p>
Old 12-25-2001, 08:02 AM
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Default Re: MTI's T1 vs C1 cams......

Raughammer - Thanks for that very detailed explaination. <img src="gr_eek2.gif" border="0">

FYI: The reason i started this thread was because i too have the "Hammer Cam" w/MTI's Stage II heads and was wondering if i was just beating up my valve train unnecessarilly. But looks like it's a "tad" better........which works for me. <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0">
Old 12-25-2001, 01:01 PM
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Default Re: MTI's T1 vs C1 cams......

So the C1 uses the Comp xtreme lobes? My extreme lobe cam sucked above 6500rpms....guess I needed better springs because it was making NO power up top...too much valve float. I have the comp 987 1.43" diameter springs. Valve train was a bit noisier at idle with that cam too, but some have said that isnt the case with the C1?
Old 12-25-2001, 03:01 PM
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Default Re: MTI's T1 vs C1 cams......

[quote]
I was really expecting the car to run like a pig on the motor with stock programming. So far, I've been totally happy with the results. Granted, when I take it to the track it won't be anything impressive, especially N/A because I didn't build it to track race. But on the street, it always puts a smile on my face.
<hr></blockquote>

I'd still look at tuning with a wideband dyno session. It might feel like it is running great, but you might also be leaving 15 ft-lbs across the powerband on the table.

I thought the TR cam was using the Extreme lobes too.
Old 12-26-2001, 12:46 AM
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Default Re: MTI's T1 vs C1 cams......

cooooool , great info ...... thanks alot <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">
Old 12-26-2001, 08:05 AM
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Default Re: MTI's T1 vs C1 cams......

[quote]Originally posted by Ragtop 99:
<strong>I'd still look at tuning with a wideband dyno session. It might feel like it is running great, but you might also be leaving 15 ft-lbs across the powerband on the table. </strong><hr></blockquote>

You are totally right. Again, it sounds dumb but I don't really want to take full advantage of the combination while N/A. If it stays on the fat side, timing stays low, I lose 15 across the board BUT it stays together when it's on the bottle, I'm happy. Since I can't use an MSD MultiStep Retard or any other sort of timing retard while it's spraying, I have to get the car into what most people would think is a crappy N/A tune on purpose. It would be nice to have full timing N/A and just use a retard of some sort while on the bottle to get the timing where I want it, but I just haven't figured out how to do that yet. <img src="images/icons/confused.gif" border="0"> Gimme some time though, I'm working on it. I look more at the end result more than anything else. If it runs a tenth or two slower on the motor, but picks it up on the bottle and on top of that, stays together, I've done my job. Street racing isn't all about horsepower, it's just as important as to how fast you can lay it down and keep it planted. I can't even keep a tranny in it with a damn 100 wet kit! <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0"> When the car had a couple of bolt-ons and nitrous combination, the fuel/air ratio was 12.8 all the way across the board on the motor and 13.1 all the way across the board with a homemade dry nitrous kit. By repositioning the nozzle I could control the hit and, to a certain extent, the fuel/air ratio. I'm just not personally someone who lays a bunch of faith in dyno tuning numbers. The car picked up considerably on the street with a totally different tune than the dyno. I have been looking into buying a wideband setup so I can get some hard data while making a pass, but when in doubt, yank the plugs. As far as I'm concerned, if you have an AutoTap and the ability to read plugs, you're set. A wideband that I could move from car to car would rock though. <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0">

-Bernie

[ December 26, 2001: Message edited by: faster67 ]</p>
Old 12-26-2001, 08:46 AM
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Default Re: MTI's T1 vs C1 cams......

Faster67:

I understand running a bit rich with a dry kit for protection, but with a wet kit, I was under the impression that you could control that through the kit itself.

One of the EFA turbo guys has a portable wideband. If your interested post in the EFA "Ask Jason" section for info on make and cost.

http://www.easternfbody.com/cgi-bin/...?ubb=forum&f=7
Old 12-27-2001, 01:31 PM
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Default Re: MTI's T1 vs C1 cams......

[quote]Originally posted by Ragtop 99:
<strong>
I thought the TR cam was using the Extreme lobes too.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Geoff@thunder racing told me the lobes are not the extreme lobes. After the concern with my valve float issues, I wanted to change lobe profiles to see if that was the issue.
Old 12-27-2001, 06:16 PM
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Default Re: MTI's T1 vs C1 cams......

[quote]Originally posted by 97C5ENVY:
<strong>Raughammer - Thanks for that very detailed explaination. <img src="gr_eek2.gif" border="0">

FYI: The reason i started this thread was because i too have the "Hammer Cam" w/MTI's Stage II heads and was wondering if i was just beating up my valve train unnecessarilly. But looks like it's a "tad" better........which works for me. <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0"> </strong><hr></blockquote>

Did you ever dyno the car?
I have a very similar configuration, and I wonder how ours compare...

Chris
HammerCam user
Old 12-27-2001, 06:23 PM
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Default Re: MTI's T1 vs C1 cams......

Here is my HammerCam dyno. I would really like to know why it is falling off at higher rpms. Someday soon MTI will redyno wiht the y-pipe off the headers to see if the exhaust is killing the upperband power. I know the dyno says T1... it is the C1 Hammer. I do know that the car needs tuning. The MAFT always gave me 15hp, and it was missing for this dyno.



chris
Old 12-27-2001, 06:32 PM
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Default Re: MTI's T1 vs C1 cams......

Visc, call me if ya can. I'll private msg you my cell number.

I dyno'd today, and it wasnt good....dang problem STILL there.
Old 12-27-2001, 08:21 PM
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Default Re: MTI's T1 vs C1 cams......

[quote]Originally posted by Visceral:
<strong>

Did you ever dyno the car?
I have a very similar configuration, and I wonder how ours compare...

Chris
HammerCam user</strong><hr></blockquote>


MTI dyno'ed it the day they finished it.....but i'm looking at doing another dyno with Colvins in Austin since they're the ones i used for my baseline.

Here's a copy of my MTI dyno:



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