is it hard to torque the head bolts??
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,294
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From: Dallas (Richardson), TX, USA
Yeah, when using the TTY bolts I had to use a breaker and a cheater. With the ARP bolts it was just a simple torque wrench. Of course, doing it out of the car is infinitely easier. 
I've done both, and I much prefer working with the ARP fasteners. I don't think there's anything wrong with the GM stuff, but the ARPs are easier to torqe, much less suseptible(sp?) to being rounded off (believe me, I put mine through hell), and give me the warm and fuzzies. The GM bolts were tougher to break loose, not reusable, and more annoying to torque down because of the angle thing.
If had it to do over, I would so buy the ARP studs instead of the bolts. I thought that the studs were overkill and not worth the extra money. Then, after I bought the bolts, it occurred to me that with the studs you don't have to clean out the damn bolt holes. That is so worth the extra money!
I've done both, and I much prefer working with the ARP fasteners. I don't think there's anything wrong with the GM stuff, but the ARPs are easier to torqe, much less suseptible(sp?) to being rounded off (believe me, I put mine through hell), and give me the warm and fuzzies. The GM bolts were tougher to break loose, not reusable, and more annoying to torque down because of the angle thing.
If had it to do over, I would so buy the ARP studs instead of the bolts. I thought that the studs were overkill and not worth the extra money. Then, after I bought the bolts, it occurred to me that with the studs you don't have to clean out the damn bolt holes. That is so worth the extra money!
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,294
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From: Dallas (Richardson), TX, USA
Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't. You can buy a large tube of it for like $6 from TSP. If you do get some with the bolts, it's just a little pouch like a ketchup packet that can't really be reused unless you seal it up well.
Originally Posted by The Sad
So do ARP bolts come with the lube?
I have only used studs on all my prior mopar bigblock builds: heads, rods, and crank.
Studs are just way more consistent. After the studs are set in the block, there is virtually no rotation of the stud threads in the block. Almost all of the rotational friction and thread stress is on the top thread, washer, and nut. This preserves the integrity of the block thread bosses.
For my engine builds, there is no better way...period.
Studs are just way more consistent. After the studs are set in the block, there is virtually no rotation of the stud threads in the block. Almost all of the rotational friction and thread stress is on the top thread, washer, and nut. This preserves the integrity of the block thread bosses.
For my engine builds, there is no better way...period.
Originally Posted by mvvette97
well I do already have new GM bolts. I do see that alot of people run the APR studs. Are the studs supposed to be better than the bolts or what?
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Verdad Gallardo Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,294
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From: Dallas (Richardson), TX, USA
The bolts are just fine. That's what I've been using, and I think I've torqued them down 4 times now. Actually, the more times you torque them the "better" they get because the friction of the threads actually decreases with each use.
If you're using the ARP moly lubricant (which you should be), I think they call for 75ft-lbs of torque. If you use straight 30 weight oil, they call for 85ft-lbs. You should torque the bolts in the usual GM pattern and do 3 passes. I torque them to 20, 50, and then 75ft-lbs. Keep in mind that this only applies to the larger bolts. The top row of small bolts are torqued to a much lower spec. I can't remember exactly, but I believe it was 19ft-lbs. There should be instructions with the bolts, so check that to be sure.
You seem to be pretty anxious about all this, and there's really nothing to worry about. Don't let the extremists get you too worked up about it. Torquing down the head bolts really isn't a big deal. It's a bit exhausting when leaning over the fender of the car, but there's nothing really hard about it. The worst part of the whole thing is trying not to lose the damn washers when you're taking the bolts back out. That's definitely a good day to own a pen magnet.
If you're using the ARP moly lubricant (which you should be), I think they call for 75ft-lbs of torque. If you use straight 30 weight oil, they call for 85ft-lbs. You should torque the bolts in the usual GM pattern and do 3 passes. I torque them to 20, 50, and then 75ft-lbs. Keep in mind that this only applies to the larger bolts. The top row of small bolts are torqued to a much lower spec. I can't remember exactly, but I believe it was 19ft-lbs. There should be instructions with the bolts, so check that to be sure.
You seem to be pretty anxious about all this, and there's really nothing to worry about. Don't let the extremists get you too worked up about it. Torquing down the head bolts really isn't a big deal. It's a bit exhausting when leaning over the fender of the car, but there's nothing really hard about it. The worst part of the whole thing is trying not to lose the damn washers when you're taking the bolts back out. That's definitely a good day to own a pen magnet.
Originally Posted by Gauge
The bolts are just fine. That's what I've been using, and I think I've torqued them down 4 times now. Actually, the more times you torque them the "better" they get because the friction of the threads actually decreases with each use.
If you're using the ARP moly lubricant (which you should be), I think they call for 75ft-lbs of torque. If you use straight 30 weight oil, they call for 85ft-lbs. You should torque the bolts in the usual GM pattern and do 3 passes. I torque them to 20, 50, and then 75ft-lbs. Keep in mind that this only applies to the larger bolts. The top row of small bolts are torqued to a much lower spec. I can't remember exactly, but I believe it was 19ft-lbs. There should be instructions with the bolts, so check that to be sure.
You seem to be pretty anxious about all this, and there's really nothing to worry about. Don't let the extremists get you too worked up about it. Torquing down the head bolts really isn't a big deal. It's a bit exhausting when leaning over the fender of the car, but there's nothing really hard about it. The worst part of the whole thing is trying not to lose the damn washers when you're taking the bolts back out. That's definitely a good day to own a pen magnet.
If you're using the ARP moly lubricant (which you should be), I think they call for 75ft-lbs of torque. If you use straight 30 weight oil, they call for 85ft-lbs. You should torque the bolts in the usual GM pattern and do 3 passes. I torque them to 20, 50, and then 75ft-lbs. Keep in mind that this only applies to the larger bolts. The top row of small bolts are torqued to a much lower spec. I can't remember exactly, but I believe it was 19ft-lbs. There should be instructions with the bolts, so check that to be sure.
You seem to be pretty anxious about all this, and there's really nothing to worry about. Don't let the extremists get you too worked up about it. Torquing down the head bolts really isn't a big deal. It's a bit exhausting when leaning over the fender of the car, but there's nothing really hard about it. The worst part of the whole thing is trying not to lose the damn washers when you're taking the bolts back out. That's definitely a good day to own a pen magnet.
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,294
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From: Dallas (Richardson), TX, USA
Originally Posted by mvvette97
thanks man. I ordered the Moly lube from summit. I have just heard of people breaking the ARP bolts off. I just don't know how they could break unless they are going alot tighter than the 75 lbs.
You shouldn't have to worry about the ARP bolts much, though. I have split not one, not two, but three sockets on the same damn bolt. Every time the cause for the split socket was because the header was resting on the deep socket I was using (resting on it with quite a bit of force, I might add) and side loading the socket while I was torquing it. No matter how hard I tried, I could not keep that damn header off the socket. Every time the bolt proved to be more stout than my Craftsman socket and split the bastard wide open. There was some scarring on the head of the bolt, but that bitch was stout. I've never seen anything like it.
Originally Posted by Gauge
The only time a bolt should ever break is when you have too much side load on it. When torquing anything hard I try to avoid having extensions or deep sockets. In this case, they can't be avoided, so instead I recommend putting one hand on the socket/extension or the head of the torque wrench to brace it and being careful to pull in the direction the torque wrench needs to swing. Be careful not to pull up or push down on it as you're turning it because that will side load the bolt and either round it off or break it.
You shouldn't have to worry about the ARP bolts much, though. I have split not one, not two, but three sockets on the same damn bolt. Every time the cause for the split socket was because the header was resting on the deep socket I was using (resting on it with quite a bit of force, I might add) and side loading the socket while I was torquing it. No matter how hard I tried, I could not keep that damn header off the socket. Every time the bolt proved to be more stout than my Craftsman socket and split the bastard wide open. There was some scarring on the head of the bolt, but that bitch was stout. I've never seen anything like it.
You shouldn't have to worry about the ARP bolts much, though. I have split not one, not two, but three sockets on the same damn bolt. Every time the cause for the split socket was because the header was resting on the deep socket I was using (resting on it with quite a bit of force, I might add) and side loading the socket while I was torquing it. No matter how hard I tried, I could not keep that damn header off the socket. Every time the bolt proved to be more stout than my Craftsman socket and split the bastard wide open. There was some scarring on the head of the bolt, but that bitch was stout. I've never seen anything like it.
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,294
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From: Dallas (Richardson), TX, USA
Originally Posted by mvvette97
damn! well I'll just take the headers out. They are just hanging there anyway. I know I also had a hard time getting the bottom bolts out because of the headers.I'll take em out so they won't be in my way.
Originally Posted by Gauge
There's nothing quite as useful as a buddy being there to hold them out of the way. That's definitely worth a couple brews an hour.
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,294
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From: Dallas (Richardson), TX, USA
Originally Posted by LS1Formulation
Just curious, but when using head studs in an F-body, are you actually able to remove the heads with the engine still in the car?
I too decided to go with ARP studs and they are sitting in my garage awaiting my winter project. I've heard that the problem with ARP bolts is that they are slightly longer than the factory bolts, combined with a milled head could cause a problem, but that is pure speculation.
We'll see how easy it is or isn't to install a head with the studs in place.
We'll see how easy it is or isn't to install a head with the studs in place.
Originally Posted by mvvette97
damn! well I'll just take the headers out. They are just hanging there anyway. I know I also had a hard time getting the bottom bolts out because of the headers.I'll take em out so they won't be in my way.