Comp grinds another cam off spec.
Originally Posted by zipdog
Seems like they may have made a mistake on the grind. Also seems like alittle bashing to me without calling them first to confirm if a mistake was made.
The reality is, if you put in this cam or the PERFECTLY ground cam you ordered, you will never see or feel any difference.
How do you know the cam measuring device is'nt fucked up?
The reality is, if you put in this cam or the PERFECTLY ground cam you ordered, you will never see or feel any difference.
How do you know the cam measuring device is'nt fucked up?
If you get the report with the cam it will show you everything. Not the cam card. The adcole. It is more detailed and drawn out to spec.
Staging Lane
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by thehammer69
You make a good point. It just might be. As much as the the rep hyped up the Adcole machine, you would think it could measure the rise of a pimple on a gnat's ***. For that matter, it has been shown time over time that the cams aren't perfectly on spec according to other cam doctors.
Anyway, I wan't looking for nor expecting perfection. In fact, it occured to me that having the real world cam specs for all eight cylinders would allow me to focus my compression calculations on the one cylinder that would produce the highest DCR results and thereby all cylinders would be at or below the max safe level.
Which then leads me to another reason, I posted this report. Since the other reports only show either an average of all or just one lobe...my report, obviously, shows all and it should also be obvious that number 7 is gonna be the max DCR cylinder of the group based on it's cam timing. Maybe it's possible that this is happening more often than we think and could potentially be the reason people are lunching number 7. Isn't this a good enough reason to at least make it worth a thought or civil discussion?
Hammer
Anyway, I wan't looking for nor expecting perfection. In fact, it occured to me that having the real world cam specs for all eight cylinders would allow me to focus my compression calculations on the one cylinder that would produce the highest DCR results and thereby all cylinders would be at or below the max safe level.
Which then leads me to another reason, I posted this report. Since the other reports only show either an average of all or just one lobe...my report, obviously, shows all and it should also be obvious that number 7 is gonna be the max DCR cylinder of the group based on it's cam timing. Maybe it's possible that this is happening more often than we think and could potentially be the reason people are lunching number 7. Isn't this a good enough reason to at least make it worth a thought or civil discussion?
Hammer
Originally Posted by thehammer69
I have no idea about the key, it is something to consider and look in to.
As far as the ordering a 223. Yeah, technically that is what I ordered but knew it would actually be a 224, so all valve events were calculated as a 224, and in fact, I was plugging in Patrick's measured valve that can be found in the link in my OP.
Hammer
As far as the ordering a 223. Yeah, technically that is what I ordered but knew it would actually be a 224, so all valve events were calculated as a 224, and in fact, I was plugging in Patrick's measured valve that can be found in the link in my OP.
Hammer
If you can use an offset key, I think I may save you a lot of greif. I don't know if LSx and SBC keyways are cut the same, or even the same length though...
Good luck with your build. Curious how the outcome will be with the wider LSA.
Originally Posted by zipdog
Why did you choose a 114 +2 cam?
Hammer
Staging Lane
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by orangeapeel
It probably is no mistake on their part. I doubt that they have rookies in there doing their valvetrain geometry.
If you get the report with the cam it will show you everything. Not the cam card. The adcole. It is more detailed and drawn out to spec.
If you get the report with the cam it will show you everything. Not the cam card. The adcole. It is more detailed and drawn out to spec.
If he orderd a 114+2 and it specs out at 114+4+, then MAYBE there was a mistake made. It's worth a phone call.
Concerning the rookies comment, call their cam help line and then stand by that statement.
If you had ordered your cam from Thunder Racing they do a cam doctor report on every cam they sell when they receive it from Comp Cams or what ever vendor produces the cam. As far as I know they are the only shop that provides this to their customers free of charge. I ordered one of the first of Patricks G's torque cams last spring and when the cam came to me it was dead on its specs. The cam doctor print out is a very nice service that Thunder Racing provides for their customers.... 
UPDATE: talked with my Rep at Comp today. He affirmed that Comp messed up and should not have let that cam out because it was beyond their allowed tolerance level. So they have issued an RMA and my rep claims he is gonna walk that cam himself over to the "Race department" to be reground. He claimed the race department has a much tighter tolerance on specifications and will be much closer to what I ordered.
Oh, and for the IKIA with the response about the extra advance being ground in by design due to cam twisting at rpms. We had a discussion about that and Comp tends to only do that for the Top Fuel guys and it has to be specifically requested. I guess that makes him an IKIA-1.
Hammer
Oh, and for the IKIA with the response about the extra advance being ground in by design due to cam twisting at rpms. We had a discussion about that and Comp tends to only do that for the Top Fuel guys and it has to be specifically requested. I guess that makes him an IKIA-1.
Hammer
TECH Fanatic
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,979
Likes: 3
From: Upstate NY
Originally Posted by thehammer69
UPDATE: talked with my Rep at Comp today. He affirmed that Comp messed up and should not have let that cam out because it was beyond their allowed tolerance level. So they have issued an RMA and my rep claims he is gonna walk that cam himself over to the "Race department" to be reground. He claimed the race department has a much tighter tolerance on specifications and will be much closer to what I ordered.
Oh, and for the IKIA with the response about the extra advance being ground in by design due to cam twisting at rpms. We had a discussion about that and Comp tends to only do that for the Top Fuel guys and it has to be specifically requested. I guess that makes him an IKIA-1.
Hammer
Oh, and for the IKIA with the response about the extra advance being ground in by design due to cam twisting at rpms. We had a discussion about that and Comp tends to only do that for the Top Fuel guys and it has to be specifically requested. I guess that makes him an IKIA-1.
Hammer
Folks who haven't read all of the thread and haven't see your "UPDATE" might certainly get the wrong idea from your rant.
FWIW:
From the data you posted:
(cam degrees)
average LSA = 114.0325° on a 114° design
maximum deviation from this average = 0.263°
max difference cyl-cyl = 0.51°
(crank degrees)
average advance = 4.145° on a (error by Comp) 4° design
maximum deviation from this average = 0.445°
max difference cyl-cyl = 0.73°
I'd like to see everything within 0.50°, so the extra 1/4 ° bothers me a little, but other than getting the nominal advance off by 2°, which will be corrected, the rest of the numbers don't look bad enough to cause the engine to notice, especially when you take into account the deflections experienced by a running valvetrain.
My $.02
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Originally Posted by Old SStroker
Posting things like this before talking with Comp (or any other vendor) makes both Comp and the poster look bad. Of course the cam was ground wrong. Even without the report you would have found that when you degreed it in at install. Calling them first would have solved the problem. Perhaps you might then have posted differently.
Folks who haven't read all of the thread and haven't see your "UPDATE" might certainly get the wrong idea from your rant.
FWIW:
From the data you posted:
(cam degrees)
average LSA = 114.0325° on a 114° design
maximum deviation from this average = 0.263°
max difference cyl-cyl = 0.51°
(crank degrees)
average advance = 4.145° on a (error by Comp) 4° design
maximum deviation from this average = 0.445°
max difference cyl-cyl = 0.73°
I'd like to see everything within 0.50°, so the extra 1/4 ° bothers me a little, but other than getting the nominal advance off by 2°, which will be corrected, the rest of the numbers don't look bad enough to cause the engine to notice, especially when you take into account the deflections experienced by a running valvetrain.
My $.02
Folks who haven't read all of the thread and haven't see your "UPDATE" might certainly get the wrong idea from your rant.
FWIW:
From the data you posted:
(cam degrees)
average LSA = 114.0325° on a 114° design
maximum deviation from this average = 0.263°
max difference cyl-cyl = 0.51°
(crank degrees)
average advance = 4.145° on a (error by Comp) 4° design
maximum deviation from this average = 0.445°
max difference cyl-cyl = 0.73°
I'd like to see everything within 0.50°, so the extra 1/4 ° bothers me a little, but other than getting the nominal advance off by 2°, which will be corrected, the rest of the numbers don't look bad enough to cause the engine to notice, especially when you take into account the deflections experienced by a running valvetrain.
My $.02
I like how you called it a rant...it really wasn't. For one, I figured some people would take interest in what a full cam report shows instead of the typical single lobe cam doctoring. And two, it shows that you can't trust the cam card...you either need to degree your cam in or pay for a report like I did that tells you specifically what is going on. I also want everybody to understand that any of my dislike on the grind specs had very little to do with what was to the right of the decimal points. My ICL was chosen based on an ICV of 44 degrees and if cam tolerances caused it to end up in the 43-45 range, i could live with it. In this case it fell down to 42 or less, which changes the characteristics of the powerband.
Bottom line... before I had even seen it, I was planning on posting the results of the Adcole report regardless of whether the grind was right or wrong. In this case, it fell on the wrong side of the advance angle....4 degrees instead of 2. It's obvious some aren't gonna agree with me about posting, some will...all I know is that I did, and I'm not sorry for doing so. Another bottom line is that this won't keep people from buying a Comp cam...I imagine 95% or more of the cams bought by forum members are ultimately Comp cams. All I've really done is make them more aware.
Hammer
i loved my cam doctor sheet from thunder racing on my custom grind i recieved a different cam than i ordered.. (got a 250/255 615/619 111 LSA but ordered a 248 254 608-615 on a 110 LSA) i just figured itd give me a little more top end and a little more lopey lope 
i recieved a different cam than i ordered.. (got a 250/255 615/619 111 LSA but ordered a 248 254 608-615 on a 110 LSA) i just figured itd give me a little more top end and a little more lopey lope 
Originally Posted by black_z
This thread is ******* retarded. Stick the cam in the engine and go have fun. Some people...... 
Hammer
I appreciate the information presented in the post. I agree that it's unacceptable. With something like our cars, it's not okay to mess up an order. It's our car. Maybe I need to drive the car on a set day, and have plans to do the install on a set day.
Thanks for the info. Sorry you have so many perfect individuals messing it up for you.
Thanks for the info. Sorry you have so many perfect individuals messing it up for you.
You dont buy a product and expect to receive the wrong thing. This is like buying a FAST 90 and getting a FAST 78, they are close, yet still different and I wouild be upset. Granted mistakes happen we all know that. There is no issue as long as the mistake is rectified. You guys really should not be bashing the thread starter about this. He just pointed out a mistake that happened, there is nothing wrong with it. They are fixing the problem so no big deal, **** happens sometimes.
The know it all's know it all
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 500
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by thehammer69
UPDATE: talked with my Rep at Comp today. He affirmed that Comp messed up and should not have let that cam out because it was beyond their allowed tolerance level. So they have issued an RMA and my rep claims he is gonna walk that cam himself over to the "Race department" to be reground. He claimed the race department has a much tighter tolerance on specifications and will be much closer to what I ordered.
Oh, and for the IKIA with the response about the extra advance being ground in by design due to cam twisting at rpms. We had a discussion about that and Comp tends to only do that for the Top Fuel guys and it has to be specifically requested. I guess that makes him an IKIA-1.
Hammer
Oh, and for the IKIA with the response about the extra advance being ground in by design due to cam twisting at rpms. We had a discussion about that and Comp tends to only do that for the Top Fuel guys and it has to be specifically requested. I guess that makes him an IKIA-1.
Hammer
for the record if a housefly lands on an I beam geuss what. it flexs. proven scientific fact. I geuss i gave comp to much credit assuming they biased the camshaft a we bit. that sux.
The know it all's know it all
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 500
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by Old SStroker
Posting things like this before talking with Comp (or any other vendor) makes both Comp and the poster look bad. Of course the cam was ground wrong. Even without the report you would have found that when you degreed it in at install. Calling them first would have solved the problem. Perhaps you might then have posted differently.
Folks who haven't read all of the thread and haven't see your "UPDATE" might certainly get the wrong idea from your rant.
FWIW:
From the data you posted:
(cam degrees)
average LSA = 114.0325° on a 114° design
maximum deviation from this average = 0.263°
max difference cyl-cyl = 0.51°
(crank degrees)
average advance = 4.145° on a (error by Comp) 4° design
maximum deviation from this average = 0.445°
max difference cyl-cyl = 0.73°
I'd like to see everything within 0.50°, so the extra 1/4 ° bothers me a little, but other than getting the nominal advance off by 2°, which will be corrected, the rest of the numbers don't look bad enough to cause the engine to notice, especially when you take into account the deflections experienced by a running valvetrain.
My $.02
Folks who haven't read all of the thread and haven't see your "UPDATE" might certainly get the wrong idea from your rant.
FWIW:
From the data you posted:
(cam degrees)
average LSA = 114.0325° on a 114° design
maximum deviation from this average = 0.263°
max difference cyl-cyl = 0.51°
(crank degrees)
average advance = 4.145° on a (error by Comp) 4° design
maximum deviation from this average = 0.445°
max difference cyl-cyl = 0.73°
I'd like to see everything within 0.50°, so the extra 1/4 ° bothers me a little, but other than getting the nominal advance off by 2°, which will be corrected, the rest of the numbers don't look bad enough to cause the engine to notice, especially when you take into account the deflections experienced by a running valvetrain.
My $.02
Staging Lane
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by Sean Collins
really becuase i always ask them to do this. you obviously talked to the morons at cam help. Yes i just siad morons. the last cam they helped me with made 85hp less then the cam i figured out on my own when i was 17. thats the last time i called cam help. well there was that 427 i built a few years ago SBC mind you and i got cam help and got screwed agian.secondly cam twist is well documented. maybe you should goto a grinder like LSM who can meet your stringent quality control concerns and individually tailor each cylinder.you won't get that cam for $400 though.
for the record if a housefly lands on an I beam geuss what. it flexs. proven scientific fact. I geuss i gave comp to much credit assuming they biased the camshaft a we bit. that sux.
for the record if a housefly lands on an I beam geuss what. it flexs. proven scientific fact. I geuss i gave comp to much credit assuming they biased the camshaft a we bit. that sux.
WERD!!!!
TECH Resident
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 855
Likes: 0
From: AUSTIN TX
Well I appreciate Hammer's post. For one, not only was the cam ground +4 instead of +2, but they apparently included a +2 cam card with the thing. As most of us know,, the majority of the do it yourself guys on this forum and at home do not degree the camshafts when they are installed, they assume that the cam is what the cam card states. So the deviation aspect just peeks some curiosity, the mistake on the other hand needed to be revealed whether or not it was corrected by Comp or not so that the rest of us have a heads up. Hammer, Thanks
Launching!
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 205
Likes: 1
From: Atlanta area, GA
Anyone giving the original poster grief about stating the measured specs (no conjecture, only facts) either has ulterior motives (vendor, etc.) or is just speaking up to get attention..
This is an excellent post, and no doubt this cam is not the first (nor the last) from Comp (or other manufacturers for that matter) that have loose tolerances coupled with incompetent laborers programming the mills.
We are to accept that the cam was ground 2 degrees out of spec but ground the lobs at an offset to counter cam twist?? Come on.. Poor tolerance control (as admitted by Comp), period end.
You should send the cam back, have them cut it with the advance you paid for, have them provide you with another analysis (for free this time) to prove it's correct.
Hammer, don't let the negative posters in this thread get you down.
This is an excellent post, and no doubt this cam is not the first (nor the last) from Comp (or other manufacturers for that matter) that have loose tolerances coupled with incompetent laborers programming the mills.
We are to accept that the cam was ground 2 degrees out of spec but ground the lobs at an offset to counter cam twist?? Come on.. Poor tolerance control (as admitted by Comp), period end.
You should send the cam back, have them cut it with the advance you paid for, have them provide you with another analysis (for free this time) to prove it's correct.
Hammer, don't let the negative posters in this thread get you down.
Last edited by Dan_the_C5_Man; Jan 19, 2007 at 01:09 AM.
Teching In
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
From: Southern California
Lifters a big variable You might want to think about the inconsistancy of the hydrolic lifters you are putting on this cam. They are most likely the major variable in the system and will change the operating cam specifications way more than the margin of error on the cam. At the higher rpm's you will see a reduction of 10 or more degrees of duration.
Installing a cam without degreeing it is a real bad idea. Who says the chain and gears, or even the crankshaft for that matter have the keyways and dowel pins all placed within a degree or two of the proper location. It suprises me that you are so particular about the cam but don't take any other parts into consideration. A little here a little there and before you know it there is a substantial error. Degreeing the cam will insure it is in where you want it.
From a practical perspective I have varied cam timming back and forth quite a bit and you do not see very noticable change in the 1/4 mile ET(about .05 seconds). It may feel a little different when you drive it around town but the net result is small.
Installing a cam without degreeing it is a real bad idea. Who says the chain and gears, or even the crankshaft for that matter have the keyways and dowel pins all placed within a degree or two of the proper location. It suprises me that you are so particular about the cam but don't take any other parts into consideration. A little here a little there and before you know it there is a substantial error. Degreeing the cam will insure it is in where you want it.
From a practical perspective I have varied cam timming back and forth quite a bit and you do not see very noticable change in the 1/4 mile ET(about .05 seconds). It may feel a little different when you drive it around town but the net result is small.