Comp grinds another cam off spec.
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Originally Posted by formulakid1
No....the question that you have avoided once more is " Are you going to degree the cam?"
Hammer
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Originally Posted by formulakid1
No....the question that you have avoided once more is " Are you going to degree the cam?"
#63
I care.
We are talking about being perfect in every lil' detail.....and to do so requires a certin amount of checking(as he did with the adcole) now he needs to check the rest of the combo.
We are talking about being perfect in every lil' detail.....and to do so requires a certin amount of checking(as he did with the adcole) now he needs to check the rest of the combo.
#65
Originally Posted by brad8266
Who cares? He ordered one thing and got something different instead. Had he not ordered the cam card for $50(which most people do not) with it, it would be off 2 degrees from whatever he thought it was.
And it looks like Comp is fixing the prob.
And why not care......if we are talking about the details.....let's talk about the details.
Would you even think of installing a cam w/o degreeing it in?
all never mind....I know what you'll say........who cares.
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Originally Posted by formulakid1
Didn't say he didn't.
And it looks like Comp is fixing the prob.
And why not care......if we are talking about the details.....let's talk about the details.
Would you even think of installing a cam w/o degreeing it in?
all never mind....I know what you'll say........who cares.
And it looks like Comp is fixing the prob.
And why not care......if we are talking about the details.....let's talk about the details.
Would you even think of installing a cam w/o degreeing it in?
all never mind....I know what you'll say........who cares.
yeah thats great comp is fixing it, mistakes happen sometimes, no biggie.
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If he already has the advance that he wants ground in, and the cam comes back on spec, there'd be no need to. That's one of those things that the internet wannabe gurus will push as gospel when the truth is even a shop will go dot to dot if the cam is ground properly.
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Originally Posted by N4cer
If he already has the advance that he wants ground in, and the cam comes back on spec, there'd be no need to. That's one of those things that the internet wannabe gurus will push as gospel when the truth is even a shop will go dot to dot if the cam is ground properly.
I dont think the internet gurus know what the price of degree tools are as well as an adjustable timing set. If I spec a cam out you best believe there is gonna be no degreeing involved in it, its gonna have everything I need ground into it so i can just install it dot to dot and be done.
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Originally Posted by Bryan Broaddus
Installing a cam without degreeing it is a real bad idea. Who says the chain and gears, or even the crankshaft for that matter have the keyways and dowel pins all placed within a degree or two of the proper location. It suprises me that you are so particular about the cam but don't take any other parts into consideration. A little here a little there and before you know it there is a substantial error. Degreeing the cam will insure it is in where you want it.
From a practical perspective I have varied cam timming back and forth quite a bit and you do not see very noticable change in the 1/4 mile ET(about .05 seconds). It may feel a little different when you drive it around town but the net result is small.
From a practical perspective I have varied cam timming back and forth quite a bit and you do not see very noticable change in the 1/4 mile ET(about .05 seconds). It may feel a little different when you drive it around town but the net result is small.
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Originally Posted by N4cer
Looks like "Degree it no matter what, because it's a good thing and it makes no significant difference."
It is a big deal because a degree set is over $100 and an adjustable timing set is $150, thats at least $250 in **** you wouldnt need if they had just ground the cam right in the first place. I cant believe people are defending a jacked up product, if its wrong its wrong, they can just take it back and fix it. Im sure Comp doesnt need internet technicians out here defending their products even when they **** up. They are gonna fix it no questions asked and thats enough to make them a legit company, they stood by the product and admitted a mistake and then offered to fix it promptly.
If I ever buy another cam it will be from thunder if they include a cam card from the cam doctor, thats quality service right there.
Last edited by brad8266; 01-19-2007 at 10:21 PM.
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Well, I know, or have a real good idea what the answer should be, but, I just wanted to get some others perspectives. Degreeing is for no cam doctor whatever the hell it is read out but you should degree all the others cause you never know, even if it has a "cam card". Heck, with my luck, my cam "doctor" card would be wrong also!!
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We've established that Comp sent him a cam with the wrong advance. They agreed, and are sending him a new one.
I know that everyone expects to get exactly what they ask for, but isn't cam selection all pretty much an educated guess anyway? Who's to say that it wouldn't have performed better with a +4 than a +2 (for example) on that particular engine with those particular lifters and that much carbon on the piston tops and that tank of gas and blah blah blah.
I certainly don't want to seem like I know what I'm doing; the process of custom cam spec selection is very interesting to me, although it seems there are always several sometimes very different opinions on what would work 'best' in any application.
Hopefully you'll get your cam specced correctly to what you think it should be, and it works well for you. Best of luck, and have fun with the project.
One thing to consider, Hammer, (and you probably already have) is the relatively wide ratios in the Z06 trans; I know the car is light relative to a CTS-V, but shifting at 6500rpm will still drop you down to 4500rpm (versus closer to 5000rpm with the 'normal' C5/Fbody gearing), so make sure the torque peak is close to 4500rpm or so, unless you plan on shifting it higher. My cam designer made me a cam with this in mind, and it peaked right at 4500rpm so it would pull 4th gear nice at the top of the track.
I know that everyone expects to get exactly what they ask for, but isn't cam selection all pretty much an educated guess anyway? Who's to say that it wouldn't have performed better with a +4 than a +2 (for example) on that particular engine with those particular lifters and that much carbon on the piston tops and that tank of gas and blah blah blah.
I certainly don't want to seem like I know what I'm doing; the process of custom cam spec selection is very interesting to me, although it seems there are always several sometimes very different opinions on what would work 'best' in any application.
Hopefully you'll get your cam specced correctly to what you think it should be, and it works well for you. Best of luck, and have fun with the project.
One thing to consider, Hammer, (and you probably already have) is the relatively wide ratios in the Z06 trans; I know the car is light relative to a CTS-V, but shifting at 6500rpm will still drop you down to 4500rpm (versus closer to 5000rpm with the 'normal' C5/Fbody gearing), so make sure the torque peak is close to 4500rpm or so, unless you plan on shifting it higher. My cam designer made me a cam with this in mind, and it peaked right at 4500rpm so it would pull 4th gear nice at the top of the track.
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Originally Posted by zipdog
You guys are funny as hell. Back and forth about degreeing a cam. It shows who the internet rookies are.
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Originally Posted by KrisR
I know that everyone expects to get exactly what they ask for, but isn't cam selection all pretty much an educated guess anyway?.
I guess ill take an educated guess on milling my heads and just mill them .060, that sounds good. Forget all the specing I have been working on to get this head/cam setup maximized. Maybe the machinbe shop will mess up and give me .030 and Ill be OK.
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Originally Posted by brad8266
You try telling that statement to an expert can designer or even some of the more cam knowledgable members here, see what they think of that. Educated guess, lol
I guess my question would be: what would the actual difference in dyno performance be between a cam with 2 degrees of advance and one with 4 degrees? Without testing both of them in an engine on the same day, with the same fuel, same exact coolant/oil/ambient/etc temps, is it really correct to say the one would be better in all ways?
Look.....believe me, I realize that there are probably a million people that know more about this than me, and I envy those that can figure all this out; but it's a little like separating fact from science. I think of a cam designer as a scientist, making the best informed decisions they can. But nothing's concrete here; yeah, maybe the +2 cam (just as an example) might make a little less peak torque (maybe 3-5 ftlbs?) and a couple more peak hp than the +4 cam, but whos to say that the car might go down the track faster anyway with one or the other, or that maybe a +3 would have been an even better choice?
I don't mean to insult anyone here, but nothing's ever perfect, and everything can always be improved somehow. The best cam designers are just a little better at weighing factors than the next guy.
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Originally Posted by KrisR
OK. So these 'experts' (your word) know exactly which cam (lobes, LSA, advance, lift, split, etc) will work for every single engine, with a certain amount of mileage, fuel (Shell brand? Amoco? 92 octane? 93?), head, valvespring, lifter, cam chain, trans ratio, stall, gear, etc.? And who's to say that the cam they design (and I'm guessing that if you have 10 'experts' that aren't buddies design you a cam, you'll get at least 5 very different ideas on what the 'best' one would be) wouldn't be a little better by changing one of the many variables in the design?
I guess my question would be: what would the actual difference in dyno performance be between a cam with 2 degrees of advance and one with 4 degrees? Without testing both of them in an engine on the same day, with the same fuel, same exact coolant/oil/ambient/etc temps, is it really correct to say the one would be better in all ways?
Look.....believe me, I realize that there are probably a million people that know more about this than me, and I envy those that can figure all this out; but it's a little like separating fact from science. I think of a cam designer as a scientist, making the best informed decisions they can. But nothing's concrete here; yeah, maybe the +2 cam (just as an example) might make a little less peak torque (maybe 3-5 ftlbs?) and a couple more peak hp than the +4 cam, but whos to say that the car might go down the track faster anyway with one or the other, or that maybe a +3 would have been an even better choice?
I don't mean to insult anyone here, but nothing's ever perfect, and everything can always be improved somehow. The best cam designers are just a little better at weighing factors than the next guy.
I guess my question would be: what would the actual difference in dyno performance be between a cam with 2 degrees of advance and one with 4 degrees? Without testing both of them in an engine on the same day, with the same fuel, same exact coolant/oil/ambient/etc temps, is it really correct to say the one would be better in all ways?
Look.....believe me, I realize that there are probably a million people that know more about this than me, and I envy those that can figure all this out; but it's a little like separating fact from science. I think of a cam designer as a scientist, making the best informed decisions they can. But nothing's concrete here; yeah, maybe the +2 cam (just as an example) might make a little less peak torque (maybe 3-5 ftlbs?) and a couple more peak hp than the +4 cam, but whos to say that the car might go down the track faster anyway with one or the other, or that maybe a +3 would have been an even better choice?
I don't mean to insult anyone here, but nothing's ever perfect, and everything can always be improved somehow. The best cam designers are just a little better at weighing factors than the next guy.
Yeah the cam jacked up from the manufactuer would be OK, but he paid good $$ for a product that he spec'd out and thats exactly how it should have arrived at his doorstep. Once again a adjustable timing set and degree set will run over $250, would you like to spend that much more because they fucked up grinding your cam? I bet you wouldnt.
And machine work today is supposed to be perfect, the guy thats gonna do my heads can be precise down 1-2 thousandths of an inch, thats damn near perfection.
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Originally Posted by brad8266
Yeah the cam jacked up from the manufactuer would be OK, but he paid good $$ for a product that he spec'd out and thats exactly how it should have arrived at his doorstep. Once again a adjustable timing set and degree set will run over $250, would you like to spend that much more because they fucked up grinding your cam? I bet you wouldnt.
.
I guess I got off-topic, and I aplogize for that. What I was talking about and asking didn't really have to do with the original situation of an admittedly botched cam order. Maybe I should have started a new thread about this. As I'm fairly new to this, I really did just more or less want to know how much difference a couple degrees here and there can make in the overall scheme of things, and to comment about the number of different opinions there are on what's 'ideal'. I know that precision is important, but if it's not 100% 'ideal' anyway then how important is it really? I guess that's why, when I got a cam for my Z06, I had a person that I knew design one for me and went with it; I tried to figure out what whould be best for my car by researching, but there were so many different schools of thought (some say that a 224 cam is the biggest you want to go in a daily-driven street car, while others say 'get the biggest one that fits without crashing pistons into valves....the drivability can be fixed with the tune...). Maybe I'm just envious of those experts....that's probably it.
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OK. So these 'experts' (your word) know exactly which cam (lobes, LSA, advance,lift, split, etc) will work for every single engine, with a certain amount of mileage, fuel (Shell brand? Amoco? 92 octane? 93?), head, valvespring, lifter, cam chain, trans ratio, stall, gear, etc.? And who's to say that the cam they design (and I'm guessing that if you have 10 'experts' that aren't buddies design you a cam, you'll get at least 5 very different ideas on what the 'best' one would be) wouldn't be a little better by changing one of the many variables in the design?
I guess my question would be: what would the actual difference in dyno
performance be between a cam with 2 degrees of advance and one with 4 degrees? Without testing both of them in an engine on the same day, with the same fuel, same exact coolant/oil/ambient/etc temps, is it really correct to say the one would be better in all ways?
Look.....believe me, I realize that there are probably a million people that
know more about this than me, and I envy those that can figure all this out; but it's a little like separating fact from science. I think of a cam designer as a scientist, making the best informed decisions they can. But nothing's concrete here; yeah, maybe the +2 cam (just as an example) might make a little less peak torque (maybe 3-5 ftlbs?) and a couple more peak hp than the +4 cam, but whos to say that the car might go down the track faster anyway with one or the other, or that maybe a +3 would have been an even better choice?
I guess my question would be: what would the actual difference in dyno
performance be between a cam with 2 degrees of advance and one with 4 degrees? Without testing both of them in an engine on the same day, with the same fuel, same exact coolant/oil/ambient/etc temps, is it really correct to say the one would be better in all ways?
Look.....believe me, I realize that there are probably a million people that
know more about this than me, and I envy those that can figure all this out; but it's a little like separating fact from science. I think of a cam designer as a scientist, making the best informed decisions they can. But nothing's concrete here; yeah, maybe the +2 cam (just as an example) might make a little less peak torque (maybe 3-5 ftlbs?) and a couple more peak hp than the +4 cam, but whos to say that the car might go down the track faster anyway with one or the other, or that maybe a +3 would have been an even better choice?
1) he did not say "give me what you think is best"
2) he did not bash comp in the original post
3) he payed extra to get what he wanted and did not get it
4) is he being a baby not getting his way? maybe
5) does it matter? see #3
6) You do have a very valid point and should be awsome reading FOR ANOTHER POST
7) can we all stop bashing him?
He posted what he asked for, what he got and thats its getting corrected. Now all we can hope for is that he reports back on what his new cam looks like, and, if were very very lucky, he will remember this thread and be HONEST and tell us if the car performed the way he expected it, now, everyone, shhhhhhhhhhh or we will scare the wiley critter away!!!