In line with some recent threads discussing smaller cams and "milder" combinations...
#41
TECH Senior Member
iTrader: (4)
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How do the QTP headers differ for the GTO? I have them on my Vette and they are Tri-Y's. They don't seem to get a lot of press for the Vette nor does the Tri-Y design get much consideration, but I bought them with the same thing in mind as Roy, that is low/mid-range power even if I scarifice a few up top (which they may or may not give up).
#43
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Originally Posted by Roy V.
You forgot to address Tony as "AFR" .......
Maybe it's because he's assuming it's going into his car which is an M6
What's your point and WTF am I missing here .........
How about you go through 2 years of dealing with breast cancer with my wife, trying to build something that would be an outlet for her, something that she needs in her life then have somebody like you **** all over my project.......
Maybe it's because he's assuming it's going into his car which is an M6
What's your point and WTF am I missing here .........
How about you go through 2 years of dealing with breast cancer with my wife, trying to build something that would be an outlet for her, something that she needs in her life then have somebody like you **** all over my project.......
![Rolleyes](https://ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies/LS1Tech/rolleyes.gif)
Originally Posted by Roy V.
And your question??? How much was what???
do you mean "how much were the AFR's and FAST90 cost wise, time wise???? and the only thing you missed was your ******* brain
do you mean "how much were the AFR's and FAST90 cost wise, time wise???? and the only thing you missed was your ******* brain
He's the one who brought up the "Bang for the buck" statement.......
It's funny how people resort to personal attacks for no reason.... i'm just trying to get some clear answers from Tony.
#44
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Guys...
Roy is obviously a little excited (and maybe a little more "edgy") because rumor has it a big truck dropped off a big wooden crate today....
And I see Flow Wizard still has his snyde little crappy attitude.
Yes....my 224/228 stock GM short with AFR 205's did put down 480 about a half a dozen times....mid 470's about 50 times....on 6 different dyno's in two different states. Also made 550 on the same engine dyno Roy's engine being discussed here made 592 on (but crushed my 346 results by 75 ft/lbs!). Let's see....my 3450 lb car also went 124 MPH with the same engine at close to 1500 D/A (not even remotely close to zero or some negative D/A's some of the better results posted are achieved in). What other proof would you like that the results were real? If you want to bring relevant questions to any of my threads go ahead, but lose the attitude because it shines thru clear as day.
And btw....Roy's engine isnt a budget build nor was it ever presented as one....just the opposite in fact. Those really interested in having work done can PM or call me for specifics.
I will get to the other topics brought up recently hopefully this evening or tomorrow in the AM
Thanks,
Tony
Roy is obviously a little excited (and maybe a little more "edgy") because rumor has it a big truck dropped off a big wooden crate today....
And I see Flow Wizard still has his snyde little crappy attitude.
Yes....my 224/228 stock GM short with AFR 205's did put down 480 about a half a dozen times....mid 470's about 50 times....on 6 different dyno's in two different states. Also made 550 on the same engine dyno Roy's engine being discussed here made 592 on (but crushed my 346 results by 75 ft/lbs!). Let's see....my 3450 lb car also went 124 MPH with the same engine at close to 1500 D/A (not even remotely close to zero or some negative D/A's some of the better results posted are achieved in). What other proof would you like that the results were real? If you want to bring relevant questions to any of my threads go ahead, but lose the attitude because it shines thru clear as day.
And btw....Roy's engine isnt a budget build nor was it ever presented as one....just the opposite in fact. Those really interested in having work done can PM or call me for specifics.
I will get to the other topics brought up recently hopefully this evening or tomorrow in the AM
Thanks,
Tony
#45
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Originally Posted by Tony Mamo @ AFR
Guys...
Roy is obviously a little excited (and maybe a little more "edgy") because rumor has it a big truck dropped off a big wooden crate today....
And I see Flow Wizard still has his snyde little crappy attitude.
Yes....my 224/228 stock GM short with AFR 205's did put down 480 about a half a dozen times....mid 470's about 50 times....on 6 different dyno's in two different states. Also made 550 on the same engine dyno Roy's engine being discussed here made 592 on (but crushed my 346 results by 75 ft/lbs!). Let's see....my 3450 lb car also went 124 MPH with the same engine at close to 1500 D/A (not even remotely close to zero or some negative D/A's some of the better results posted are achieved in). What other proof would you like that the results were real? If you want to bring relevant questions to any of my threads go ahead, but lose the attitude because it shines thru clear as day.
And btw....Roy's engine isnt a budget build nor was it ever presented as one....just the opposite in fact. Those really interested in having work done can PM or call me for specifics.
I will get to the other topics brought up recently hopefully this evening or tomorrow in the AM
Thanks,
Tony
Roy is obviously a little excited (and maybe a little more "edgy") because rumor has it a big truck dropped off a big wooden crate today....
And I see Flow Wizard still has his snyde little crappy attitude.
Yes....my 224/228 stock GM short with AFR 205's did put down 480 about a half a dozen times....mid 470's about 50 times....on 6 different dyno's in two different states. Also made 550 on the same engine dyno Roy's engine being discussed here made 592 on (but crushed my 346 results by 75 ft/lbs!). Let's see....my 3450 lb car also went 124 MPH with the same engine at close to 1500 D/A (not even remotely close to zero or some negative D/A's some of the better results posted are achieved in). What other proof would you like that the results were real? If you want to bring relevant questions to any of my threads go ahead, but lose the attitude because it shines thru clear as day.
And btw....Roy's engine isnt a budget build nor was it ever presented as one....just the opposite in fact. Those really interested in having work done can PM or call me for specifics.
I will get to the other topics brought up recently hopefully this evening or tomorrow in the AM
Thanks,
Tony
#46
Kleeborp the Moderator™
iTrader: (11)
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Originally Posted by Flow Wizard
Still waiting...... It's ok if you still need more time to make up... i mean research your answers
I don't know why you think this is a valid argument...I can't think of anything that is that labor and detail intensive that comes cheap. Unless you think you can do better, at which point I would ask you to make up...I mean get off your *** and stop internet bench racing...a combo that would hold a candle to what Tony can come up with.
If you don't want to pay the premium price it costs to go fast, that's your business. IMO, it has no place in this informational thread.
#47
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Originally Posted by Flow Wizard
Still waiting...... It's ok if you still need more time to make up... i mean research your answers
Do I have to biotch slap you and put you in your place again?
It is so easy and kind of fun. Easy because all my results are real, dyno proven, and have substance....what you see is what you get. No worries about someone calling me out on something because there is nothing to call me out on.
And Im working on finding out who you really are....hope you covered your troll tracks well (where's the troll icon when you really need it?) You signed on as a member a full month ago and are questioning me on results that haven't been discussed in a year or more (my old 346 combo). Hell....has there even been a single thread or discussion about my old combo in the last 6 months....I dont even think so.
Guys, I apologize I havent been back sooner.....I have been building an engine and working on some customers projects the last few days. I will definitley post concerning some good points in this thread made by others as soon as time presents itself (and look over any of Flow Loser's comments that have actual substance worth discussing that I might have overlooked).
Thanks,
Tony
#49
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Originally Posted by Flow Wizard
Still waiting...... It's ok if you still need more time to make up... i mean research your answers
![Icon Rolleyes](https://ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies2/icon_rolleyes.gif)
#51
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Originally Posted by Tony Mamo @ AFR
Flow Loser....
Do I have to biotch slap you and put you in your place again?
It is so easy and kind of fun. Easy because all my results are real, dyno proven, and have substance....what you see is what you get. No worries about someone calling me out on something because there is nothing to call me out on.
And Im working on finding out who you really are....hope you covered your troll tracks well (where's the troll icon when you really need it?) You signed on as a member a full month ago and are questioning me on results that haven't been discussed in a year or more (my old 346 combo). Hell....has there even been a single thread or discussion about my old combo in the last 6 months....I dont even think so.
Guys, I apologize I havent been back sooner.....I have been building an engine and working on some customers projects the last few days. I will definitley post concerning some good points in this thread made by others as soon as time presents itself (and look over any of Flow Loser's comments that have actual substance worth discussing that I might have overlooked).
Thanks,
Tony
Do I have to biotch slap you and put you in your place again?
It is so easy and kind of fun. Easy because all my results are real, dyno proven, and have substance....what you see is what you get. No worries about someone calling me out on something because there is nothing to call me out on.
And Im working on finding out who you really are....hope you covered your troll tracks well (where's the troll icon when you really need it?) You signed on as a member a full month ago and are questioning me on results that haven't been discussed in a year or more (my old 346 combo). Hell....has there even been a single thread or discussion about my old combo in the last 6 months....I dont even think so.
Guys, I apologize I havent been back sooner.....I have been building an engine and working on some customers projects the last few days. I will definitley post concerning some good points in this thread made by others as soon as time presents itself (and look over any of Flow Loser's comments that have actual substance worth discussing that I might have overlooked).
Thanks,
Tony
I have no reason to "hide my troll tracks" i am not trolling i simply asked questions that i wanted to hear the answers to but if you don't want to answer that is ok....
BTW it was not a personal attack, just trying to show how he skirts around the questions.... It ok this is your thread and you can take as much time as you want.
And no i am not one of Tony's Competitors..... But i do wish i could find the pictures i took of the "box stock" AFR heads Tony had on his HC combo....funny how they were missing the CNC tooling marks......
#52
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Originally Posted by Flow Wizard
And no i am not one of Tony's Competitors..... But i do wish i could find the pictures i took of the "box stock" AFR heads Tony had on his HC combo....funny how they were missing the CNC tooling marks......
Good to have you chime in again so I can once again respond and make it clear to all reading that you are such a chump (and a liar it seems as well).
Like YOU took a picture of the heads on my car....if so please tell me who you are and when you would have had the chance to do so.
How about this....I sold the heads that were on my former 346 combo to Chad Rose (Black02SS) on this board (the owner of Greenlight Motorsports). Seeing as he received them and installed him on his car perhaps he could chime in on whether or not the heads still retained the factory CNC marks....in fact seems as if I sent Chad a half a dozen pics as well....Im sure I could post one in here also.
While I could have all of you posts in this thread deleted I prefer to keep them here so everyone can see right thru you and your bullshit. Hard for you to have much credibility at this point the way I see it. You may have to start a new troll name next month because this one is getting old....very sad.
Thanks for keeping my thread alive....and the entertainment has been priceless.
I'll be back today guys on some of the real topics of discussion....
Tony M.
#53
TECH Junkie
iTrader: (36)
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Originally Posted by Flow Wizard
But i do wish i could find the pictures i took of the "box stock" AFR heads Tony had on his HC combo....funny how they were missing the CNC tooling marks......
![Icon Rolleyes](https://ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies2/icon_rolleyes.gif)
#54
Kleeborp the Moderator™
iTrader: (11)
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Originally Posted by Black02SS
![Icon Rolleyes](https://ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies2/icon_rolleyes.gif)
![The Jester](https://ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies/LS1Tech/gr_jest.gif)
I don't think he really had a point. Just likes to hear himself talk...or read what he wrote...or something like that.
#57
LS1 Tech Administrator
iTrader: (14)
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Originally Posted by Flow Wizard
This has nothing to do with your build and i'm sorry for your wife, this is directed to Tony "AFR" since his combinations seem to end up with more power than anyone else can come up with, like 480+whp out of a 346 with "out of the box" afr 205's and some 22X cam....... ![Rolleyes](https://ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies/LS1Tech/rolleyes.gif)
![Rolleyes](https://ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies/LS1Tech/rolleyes.gif)
You write like somebody who's been on the board a long time. Funny you don't remember any of the LG Motorsports dynos of heads/cam C5s running AFR 205s making more than 500 rwhp. Granted, they were running larger cams than Tony's 224/228 .581/.588 114LSA cam so it only makes sense. Even my car made in the higher 480s when I was running AFR 205s and a Thunder Racing 231/234 .643/.598 112LSA TRak cam. See below. My point? You are doing nothing but making yourself look like a troll. Do us all a favor...bring some tech into the next reply or prepare for a vacation.
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2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2022 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 S&B CAI, Corsa catback.
2023 Corvette 3LT Z51 soon to be modified.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
![](https://ls1tech.com/forums/signaturepics/sigpic210_1.gif)
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2022 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 S&B CAI, Corsa catback.
2023 Corvette 3LT Z51 soon to be modified.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
#58
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Originally Posted by Tony Mamo @ AFR
Flow Moron....
Good to have you chime in again so I can once again respond and make it clear to all reading that you are such a chump (and a liar it seems as well).
Like YOU took a picture of the heads on my car....if so please tell me who you are and when you would have had the chance to do so.
How about this....I sold the heads that were on my former 346 combo to Chad Rose (Black02SS) on this board (the owner of Greenlight Motorsports). Seeing as he received them and installed him on his car perhaps he could chime in on whether or not the heads still retained the factory CNC marks....in fact seems as if I sent Chad a half a dozen pics as well....Im sure I could post one in here also.
While I could have all of you posts in this thread deleted I prefer to keep them here so everyone can see right thru you and your bullshit. Hard for you to have much credibility at this point the way I see it. You may have to start a new troll name next month because this one is getting old....very sad.
Thanks for keeping my thread alive....and the entertainment has been priceless.
I'll be back today guys on some of the real topics of discussion....
Tony M.
Good to have you chime in again so I can once again respond and make it clear to all reading that you are such a chump (and a liar it seems as well).
Like YOU took a picture of the heads on my car....if so please tell me who you are and when you would have had the chance to do so.
How about this....I sold the heads that were on my former 346 combo to Chad Rose (Black02SS) on this board (the owner of Greenlight Motorsports). Seeing as he received them and installed him on his car perhaps he could chime in on whether or not the heads still retained the factory CNC marks....in fact seems as if I sent Chad a half a dozen pics as well....Im sure I could post one in here also.
While I could have all of you posts in this thread deleted I prefer to keep them here so everyone can see right thru you and your bullshit. Hard for you to have much credibility at this point the way I see it. You may have to start a new troll name next month because this one is getting old....very sad.
Thanks for keeping my thread alive....and the entertainment has been priceless.
I'll be back today guys on some of the real topics of discussion....
Tony M.
Patrick,
I do rememeber the LG car making the power but like you said they where on much larger cams.
#59
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Ok...
Let me quickly hit on some of the better points that have been brought up in this conversation....
Vipretr2....concerning chassis dyno losses it has been my contention for quite some time that they are closer to a fixed "delta" as I refer to it versus a percentage. Of course every number represents a certain percentage but if you have a known driveline and spin that driveline the same speed during the sweep (say from 3000-7000 RPM), the losses should remain close to a constant of fixed number (the Delta) no matter what engine is placed in front of it. So yes....if you pick up another 100 HP on the engine dyno with a new combination, all or close to all of those gains will be transmitted to the pavement. At the point where a particular known driveline is close to failing and you have driveshafts and half shafts whipping wildly and rear end gears and cases getting tweaked under load, your losses from friction, driveshaft whip, and heat would increase slightly right before your driveline gave up the ghost. Note that my opinion while backed by my own testing (as well as others I trust in the industry who work with both engine and chassis dyno's) is not the "popular" generally accepted opinion and I don't want to muddy up this thread with controversy concerning that from the percentage loss crowd having to prove a point. I have been involved in a few topics discussing this and they can get very heated from both camps....this thread isnt the time and place. More real world info to once again back and solidify that theory will be available when I test my upcoming 415 on the engine dyno (same one used here) and then ultimately in my vehicle on the chassis dyno. If my "air dyno" is close at 650 flywheel ponies, I should make in the vicinity of 575 at the wheels based on my previous "Delta" with my known driveline losses. Also, it's important to note that every individuals car has there own Delta....driveline component weight, wheels and tires, type of trans, converter, rear end gear ratio....all of these variables factor into your personal net loss from engine to chassis results.
Bob (Vettenuts)....you are right that the Tri-Y design is usually worth a little more downstairs and in the middle part of your power band than a typical 4 into one set-up, but an optimized length primary pipe coupled with an efficient merge style collecter with the merge spike included could come close or potentially exceed the Tri-Y design and make more power at peak and past peak, but the likelihood is better that your Tri-Y set-up will beat most commercially available 4 into 1 set-ups, but also probably cost you a few ponies at the top end of the range....essentially everything you were onboard with going in it seems. All is good there...
Ragtop...some of the low lift flow flow gains were from the chamber and light porting work....some were also from the fact I tested these heads on a 4" bore (versus a 3.900) to better simulate Roy's actual numbers with the LS2 block. There is a benefit to the smaller valve also when you do the chamber work as there is lots of room between the valve and the chamber wall when finished. A 225 at the same size chamber diameter is slightly more crowded with the larger 2.080 valve....another small perk or reason I felt the 2.020 valved reworked AFR 205 would be the better choice in Roy's application, but the additional airspeed and part throttle the smaller head would offer was the main driving force in that decision. Knowing I could get the low and midlift flow close to the 225's be reworking the head simply made it more of a no-brainer.
Last but not least would be Flow Buzzard's concerns (good one Pat!) which besides his lies and general poor disposition, primarily consisted of pinning me down on pricing and arguing this wasn't a budget build. No ****....I never claimed it was and in fact stated early on in this thread just the opposite. The point of this thread was more aimed at showing you can have your cake and eat it to (aggressive package numbers with perfectly drivability and an almost stock like idle) if you put the right package together, meticulously assemble it, and spend more on some additional machine work, porting, and other quality components that helped this engine ultimately generate the power it did.
Regarding pricing on porting work and other concerns, those types of things are best handled privately through PM or on the phone....you guys know where to find me.
Regards,
Tony
Let me quickly hit on some of the better points that have been brought up in this conversation....
Vipretr2....concerning chassis dyno losses it has been my contention for quite some time that they are closer to a fixed "delta" as I refer to it versus a percentage. Of course every number represents a certain percentage but if you have a known driveline and spin that driveline the same speed during the sweep (say from 3000-7000 RPM), the losses should remain close to a constant of fixed number (the Delta) no matter what engine is placed in front of it. So yes....if you pick up another 100 HP on the engine dyno with a new combination, all or close to all of those gains will be transmitted to the pavement. At the point where a particular known driveline is close to failing and you have driveshafts and half shafts whipping wildly and rear end gears and cases getting tweaked under load, your losses from friction, driveshaft whip, and heat would increase slightly right before your driveline gave up the ghost. Note that my opinion while backed by my own testing (as well as others I trust in the industry who work with both engine and chassis dyno's) is not the "popular" generally accepted opinion and I don't want to muddy up this thread with controversy concerning that from the percentage loss crowd having to prove a point. I have been involved in a few topics discussing this and they can get very heated from both camps....this thread isnt the time and place. More real world info to once again back and solidify that theory will be available when I test my upcoming 415 on the engine dyno (same one used here) and then ultimately in my vehicle on the chassis dyno. If my "air dyno" is close at 650 flywheel ponies, I should make in the vicinity of 575 at the wheels based on my previous "Delta" with my known driveline losses. Also, it's important to note that every individuals car has there own Delta....driveline component weight, wheels and tires, type of trans, converter, rear end gear ratio....all of these variables factor into your personal net loss from engine to chassis results.
Bob (Vettenuts)....you are right that the Tri-Y design is usually worth a little more downstairs and in the middle part of your power band than a typical 4 into one set-up, but an optimized length primary pipe coupled with an efficient merge style collecter with the merge spike included could come close or potentially exceed the Tri-Y design and make more power at peak and past peak, but the likelihood is better that your Tri-Y set-up will beat most commercially available 4 into 1 set-ups, but also probably cost you a few ponies at the top end of the range....essentially everything you were onboard with going in it seems. All is good there...
Ragtop...some of the low lift flow flow gains were from the chamber and light porting work....some were also from the fact I tested these heads on a 4" bore (versus a 3.900) to better simulate Roy's actual numbers with the LS2 block. There is a benefit to the smaller valve also when you do the chamber work as there is lots of room between the valve and the chamber wall when finished. A 225 at the same size chamber diameter is slightly more crowded with the larger 2.080 valve....another small perk or reason I felt the 2.020 valved reworked AFR 205 would be the better choice in Roy's application, but the additional airspeed and part throttle the smaller head would offer was the main driving force in that decision. Knowing I could get the low and midlift flow close to the 225's be reworking the head simply made it more of a no-brainer.
Last but not least would be Flow Buzzard's concerns (good one Pat!) which besides his lies and general poor disposition, primarily consisted of pinning me down on pricing and arguing this wasn't a budget build. No ****....I never claimed it was and in fact stated early on in this thread just the opposite. The point of this thread was more aimed at showing you can have your cake and eat it to (aggressive package numbers with perfectly drivability and an almost stock like idle) if you put the right package together, meticulously assemble it, and spend more on some additional machine work, porting, and other quality components that helped this engine ultimately generate the power it did.
Regarding pricing on porting work and other concerns, those types of things are best handled privately through PM or on the phone....you guys know where to find me.
Regards,
Tony
#60
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Originally Posted by Black02SS
![Icon Rolleyes](https://ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies2/icon_rolleyes.gif)
![The Jester](https://ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies/LS1Tech/gr_jest.gif)