Collapsed Lifter Suspicion...
Collapsed Lifter Suspicion... The victim: 2000 WS6 M6. Just recently finished an ARE Stg II H/C.
The symptom is ticking (tick tick tick tick tick). It sounds like an exhuast leak, but it is defiantly coming from the #5 or #7 cylinder valve train. I can hear it from inside the car.
The ticking is isolated to RPM greater than 2500. I can't tell if there is a power loss because the car hauls so much more *** from the H/C.
I just recently installed chrome-moly pushrods, and inspected each one of them for straitness. Has anybody ever bent one of these?
I will be pulling the valve train on the engine tommorrow, and am wondering what to look for in regards to a collapsed lifter. Is it easy to spot?
Who sells rockers for 1.4" diameter valve springs. I don't feel like machining another set of stockers to clear the springs.
Thanks
It was running good <img border="0" title="" alt="[Sad]" src="gr_sad.gif" />
<small>[ April 20, 2002, 10:47 PM: Message edited by: NoGo ]</small>
The symptom is ticking (tick tick tick tick tick). It sounds like an exhuast leak, but it is defiantly coming from the #5 or #7 cylinder valve train. I can hear it from inside the car.
The ticking is isolated to RPM greater than 2500. I can't tell if there is a power loss because the car hauls so much more *** from the H/C.
I just recently installed chrome-moly pushrods, and inspected each one of them for straitness. Has anybody ever bent one of these?
I will be pulling the valve train on the engine tommorrow, and am wondering what to look for in regards to a collapsed lifter. Is it easy to spot?
Who sells rockers for 1.4" diameter valve springs. I don't feel like machining another set of stockers to clear the springs.
Thanks
It was running good <img border="0" title="" alt="[Sad]" src="gr_sad.gif" />
<small>[ April 20, 2002, 10:47 PM: Message edited by: NoGo ]</small>
Re: Collapsed Lifter Suspicion... What is the base circle diameter on the camshaft? How much were your heads milled? What length pushrod are you running?
Man, I hope you are wrong. That would suck. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Sad]" src="gr_sad.gif" />
Eric
Man, I hope you are wrong. That would suck. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Sad]" src="gr_sad.gif" />
Eric
Re: Collapsed Lifter Suspicion... Because I'm a genius I managed to have left my spec sheet at work <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> . The entire set was setup by ARE. The only thing that didn't get exchanged was the lifters and the rockers. I read somewhere that you should never use old lifter on a new cam and vice-versa....but blew it off as unecessary <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
Is there a way to check for a bad lifter without pulling the heads again (this will be the third time this month <img border="0" alt="[whiner]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cry.gif" /> )
Tomorrow I plan to dive into the valvetrain and check:
All rocker clearences again
Marks on the retainers for retainer/rocker contact
Properly seated tappets
Rocker torque
Bent pushrods
And last but not least, how can I check for a crapped out lifter?
Any input would be appreciated...
Is there a way to check for a bad lifter without pulling the heads again (this will be the third time this month <img border="0" alt="[whiner]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cry.gif" /> )
Tomorrow I plan to dive into the valvetrain and check:
All rocker clearences again
Marks on the retainers for retainer/rocker contact
Properly seated tappets
Rocker torque
Bent pushrods
And last but not least, how can I check for a crapped out lifter?
Any input would be appreciated...
TECH Resident
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 943
Likes: 0
From: Barbaria
Re: Collapsed Lifter Suspicion... Would it show up as a loss of power on the dyno? I have a tap tap tap noise now after my cam install, but the car did well on the dyno. It's not an exhaust leak either.
I did a new cam with old lifters too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Sad]" src="gr_sad.gif" />
I did a new cam with old lifters too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Sad]" src="gr_sad.gif" />
Re: Collapsed Lifter Suspicion... The rockers clear great. I made sure I clearenced them enough. I wanted no part of that nightmare. None of my retainers are scarred either.
Being I have heard so much about the rocker/retainer fiasco I decided to try something out, and make sure I wasn't part of it.
I put the car all back together and took it out for a little spin. I remember that most guys with the problem had problems getting past 6000 rpms. So, I figured I try to get the car up 6000 and see what happenes (stock limiter is in)
It turnes out that car revs to the limiter perfectly, no excessive valve train noise, no black smoke nutttin. I did it a couple times.
Unfortunately on my last try something blew. Smoke flew out from under the hood and started to envelope the car. A quick inspection showed that the car just burped out both valve-cover gaskets. Another quick inspection showed that I HAD FORGOT TO PLUG IN THE VALVE BREATHER HOSE TO THE THROTTLE BODY. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="gr_images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="gr_images/icons/mad.gif" /> Uhg!
So now I am waiting for the car to cool down so I can go clean up that mess....joy. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
Being I have heard so much about the rocker/retainer fiasco I decided to try something out, and make sure I wasn't part of it.
I put the car all back together and took it out for a little spin. I remember that most guys with the problem had problems getting past 6000 rpms. So, I figured I try to get the car up 6000 and see what happenes (stock limiter is in)
It turnes out that car revs to the limiter perfectly, no excessive valve train noise, no black smoke nutttin. I did it a couple times.
Unfortunately on my last try something blew. Smoke flew out from under the hood and started to envelope the car. A quick inspection showed that the car just burped out both valve-cover gaskets. Another quick inspection showed that I HAD FORGOT TO PLUG IN THE VALVE BREATHER HOSE TO THE THROTTLE BODY. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="gr_images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="gr_images/icons/mad.gif" /> Uhg!
So now I am waiting for the car to cool down so I can go clean up that mess....joy. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
Staging Lane
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
From: Kansas City, MO
Re: Collapsed Lifter Suspicion... Man...I was about to post about the same thing happening to my car. I broke a 941 about a month or month and a half ago and swapped in 918's. Everything was fine for 2K miles, and then the car started running a tad rough. Not too bad...didnt seem down on power or anything. Today driving about 80 or so miles from Lawrence, KS to KC, MO I had the exact same noise as you describe progressively get worse.
I bounced my speed limiter on the way home too...hehe...perhaps for the last time. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Sad]" src="gr_sad.gif" />
I guess Ill go pull the passenger valve cover... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Sad]" src="gr_sad.gif" />
I bounced my speed limiter on the way home too...hehe...perhaps for the last time. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Sad]" src="gr_sad.gif" />
I guess Ill go pull the passenger valve cover... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Sad]" src="gr_sad.gif" />
Trending Topics
Re: Collapsed Lifter Suspicion... Just thought that I would mention that one of my emmission air line bolts just broke off in the header, and the rest of it isn't coming out...
I think its time to put the tools down....
<img border="0" alt="[chug]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_chug.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[chug]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_chug.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[chug]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_chug.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[chug]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_chug.gif" />
mamma said there'd be days like this
I think its time to put the tools down....
<img border="0" alt="[chug]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_chug.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[chug]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_chug.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[chug]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_chug.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[chug]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_chug.gif" />
mamma said there'd be days like this
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Re: Collapsed Lifter Suspicion... I think you have a broken valve spring or rocker arm. Broken LS1 lifters are quite quite rare.
Sounds like you are getting frustrated and sloppy, take a break there's always tomorrow. I would not drive the car anymore until you figure out if it's a spring.
Sounds like you are getting frustrated and sloppy, take a break there's always tomorrow. I would not drive the car anymore until you figure out if it's a spring.
Staging Lane
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
From: Kansas City, MO
Re: Collapsed Lifter Suspicion... I think I have the same problem that NoGo has...and I did a search and Jax White had a similar sounding problem back in March.
I just pulled my passenger side cover and checked all the rockers, springs, and p-rods. Everything was fine!?!?
I dont know whether to button it all up now or what? I know the sound is passenger side....
Any thoughts?
I pushed down on the pushrods and none of the lifters felt spongy or anything. Any other way to tell if Ive got a bad lifer?
I just pulled my passenger side cover and checked all the rockers, springs, and p-rods. Everything was fine!?!?
I dont know whether to button it all up now or what? I know the sound is passenger side....
Any thoughts?
I pushed down on the pushrods and none of the lifters felt spongy or anything. Any other way to tell if Ive got a bad lifer?
Re: Collapsed Lifter Suspicion... I had a broken spring back in September, this is much less pronounced. That was with a single coil setup. Maybe with a double coil it is a little sneakier?
I would assume with a broken rocker or spring the sound would be coming directly from the valve train. This noise, though, is barely audable from the other valve noise if you just stick your head under the hood. If you climb under the car though it is a different story, very noisy down there.
Visual inspections for me and WS6Modder have pulled up nuttin.
Can somebody please give us some direction on how to test if
A lifter is crapped out.
A rocker is toast even though it looks fine.
A spring is toast even though it looks fine.
Thanks in advance
-Kevin
I would assume with a broken rocker or spring the sound would be coming directly from the valve train. This noise, though, is barely audable from the other valve noise if you just stick your head under the hood. If you climb under the car though it is a different story, very noisy down there.
Visual inspections for me and WS6Modder have pulled up nuttin.
Can somebody please give us some direction on how to test if
A lifter is crapped out.
A rocker is toast even though it looks fine.
A spring is toast even though it looks fine.
Thanks in advance
-Kevin
Re: Collapsed Lifter Suspicion... If the spring looks ok visually I would order a replacement and swap out the cylinder in question (the wone you hear a ticking on). I would be more likely to swap springs before pulling the heads.
Have you checked for misfires (autotap) or for knock retard?
Eric
Have you checked for misfires (autotap) or for knock retard?
Eric
Re: Collapsed Lifter Suspicion... Just got the valve train off (this time it only took about 30 minutes <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="gr_images/icons/cool.gif" /> ) and everything looks fine. I checked the car over for exhuast leaks, nothing.
JimTA, the power of my car doesn't seem to be down at all either. So there doesn't appear to be a power loss.... but I have this annoying tapping sound (tap tap tap tap tap tap tap) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="gr_images/icons/mad.gif" />
The repetition defiantly sounds like it is associated to one rocker/lifter. The tapping started at only 2500 rpm plus, but it seems to be migrating down, and now the car taps immediately on start-up.... so I guess it is progressivly getting worse <img border="0" title="" alt="[Sad]" src="gr_sad.gif" />
I think that I am going to go ahead and order some lifters and just change them out... I guess this means the heads are coming off again. I have spent more friggen money on head gaskets and bolts <img border="0" alt="[whiner]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cry.gif" />
Who can recommend a good set of after market lifters? About how much?
JimTA, the power of my car doesn't seem to be down at all either. So there doesn't appear to be a power loss.... but I have this annoying tapping sound (tap tap tap tap tap tap tap) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="gr_images/icons/mad.gif" />
The repetition defiantly sounds like it is associated to one rocker/lifter. The tapping started at only 2500 rpm plus, but it seems to be migrating down, and now the car taps immediately on start-up.... so I guess it is progressivly getting worse <img border="0" title="" alt="[Sad]" src="gr_sad.gif" />
I think that I am going to go ahead and order some lifters and just change them out... I guess this means the heads are coming off again. I have spent more friggen money on head gaskets and bolts <img border="0" alt="[whiner]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cry.gif" />
Who can recommend a good set of after market lifters? About how much?
Re: Collapsed Lifter Suspicion... You might try Comp's 875 lifters. I've heard they're pretty good. As for reusing lifters with a new cam, it's okay since we have roller lifters. If it was a flat-tappet setup, then it's mandatory to get new lifters w/ the cam since the lifters develop a wear pattern w/ the camshaft. I have a buddy that recently had a TR224 cam and GTP heads installed, and one of his lifters collapsed. They just put another stock lifter in, and everything is great now.
__________________
TECH Fanatic
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,055
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From: Baton Rouge, LA
Re: Collapsed Lifter Suspicion... Yeah, just as Trevor said, there is nothing wrong with reusing a relatively low mileage hydrolic lifter. They dont wear liek a solid lifter so there is nothing to worry about. Were this 1968 and you were changing out some old school stuff you would need to change lifters too, but luckily its not.
The rockers are clearing everything OK, huh?
good luck
The rockers are clearing everything OK, huh?
good luck
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 8,484
Likes: 0
From: Cecil County Raceway!!!
Re: Collapsed Lifter Suspicion... </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Pro Stock John:
<strong>I think you have a broken valve spring or rocker arm. Broken LS1 lifters are quite quite rare.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">We had one go right after a cam swap. Car was good until it warmed up after driving a while, it would start a pronounced tapping once it collapsed <img border="0" title="" alt="[Sad]" src="gr_sad.gif" />
<small>[ April 22, 2002, 07:24 AM: Message edited by: Fireball ]</small>
<strong>I think you have a broken valve spring or rocker arm. Broken LS1 lifters are quite quite rare.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">We had one go right after a cam swap. Car was good until it warmed up after driving a while, it would start a pronounced tapping once it collapsed <img border="0" title="" alt="[Sad]" src="gr_sad.gif" />
<small>[ April 22, 2002, 07:24 AM: Message edited by: Fireball ]</small>
Re: Collapsed Lifter Suspicion... YES, the wheel well. That's where all my noise seems to be coming from.
I was obsessed with the drivers side O2 sensor before the cat for days, because that is exactly where the sound seems to be coming from. I thought it was an exhaust leak at first, but now that it is louder it is defiantly mechanical ticking (tick tick tick tick tick <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="gr_eek2.gif" /> )
The noise is basically non-existant until the car warms up, then just comes to life.
Just got of the phone with ARE and was informed that they have NEVER had this type of spring fail....ever. Doesn't mean that it can't happend, but it defiantly skews my problem towards rockers and lifters.
I will be purchasing some lifters today from (from one of our reputed sponsors of coarse) and should be able to get them installed as soon as they show. The whole "fix", if it is the lifters, should cost me no more than 2 bills and some change. I can suck-up blowing a couple hundred if I am wrong. I will post the results when everything is finished.
Thanks again for everybody's help and opinion on the problem. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" />
I was obsessed with the drivers side O2 sensor before the cat for days, because that is exactly where the sound seems to be coming from. I thought it was an exhaust leak at first, but now that it is louder it is defiantly mechanical ticking (tick tick tick tick tick <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="gr_eek2.gif" /> )
The noise is basically non-existant until the car warms up, then just comes to life.
Just got of the phone with ARE and was informed that they have NEVER had this type of spring fail....ever. Doesn't mean that it can't happend, but it defiantly skews my problem towards rockers and lifters.
I will be purchasing some lifters today from (from one of our reputed sponsors of coarse) and should be able to get them installed as soon as they show. The whole "fix", if it is the lifters, should cost me no more than 2 bills and some change. I can suck-up blowing a couple hundred if I am wrong. I will post the results when everything is finished.
Thanks again for everybody's help and opinion on the problem. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" />
