Reverse torquer cam (the other side of the coin)
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Joined: Mar 2004
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From: BFE
Reverse torquer cam (the other side of the coin) Well, we are always looking for innovative ways of making more power. The usual tendency is to go as large as the motor can take.
Then, new angles are being shown such as new high lift ramps (LSK, XFI) and how smaller durations start to become evident factors in making same power as bigger cams.
Still though those lifts are not for everyone and there are limits to everything.
After all why use a lift that goes beyond what a head can flow, like throwing stones at a wall.
So being the XE-R factionado as I am, I started to take a deeper look at "the other side" of the trend flow (standard split).
From my darkness came a little light and it started becoming clearer to me that there are alternative approaches.
For exemple:
232/228, .595/.588 108-1 LSA (108LSA/109 ICL)
That should make killer midrange trq, peak about 6300 (depending on intake), and carry very well after peak. On top of that 14* overlap for ground shaking lope (and a nice indication of the power it can make)
Yet it remains kinda small, without using huge lifts (no wimps either but still more realistic to the average head parameters that we see).
So there it is for perusal and discussion.
Then, new angles are being shown such as new high lift ramps (LSK, XFI) and how smaller durations start to become evident factors in making same power as bigger cams.
Still though those lifts are not for everyone and there are limits to everything.
After all why use a lift that goes beyond what a head can flow, like throwing stones at a wall.
So being the XE-R factionado as I am, I started to take a deeper look at "the other side" of the trend flow (standard split).
From my darkness came a little light and it started becoming clearer to me that there are alternative approaches.
For exemple:
232/228, .595/.588 108-1 LSA (108LSA/109 ICL)
That should make killer midrange trq, peak about 6300 (depending on intake), and carry very well after peak. On top of that 14* overlap for ground shaking lope (and a nice indication of the power it can make)
Yet it remains kinda small, without using huge lifts (no wimps either but still more realistic to the average head parameters that we see).
So there it is for perusal and discussion.
Since my experience with a TR230, I'm all in favor of reverse split cams. Since we are on the topic I'll pose a question. My stock headed '02 TA ran very well with the TR230 low 11's@~123 on a 3500lb raceweight. The torque curve was unbelievable on the street as well. I am currently putting together a stock bottom, stock lightweight valve headed LS6, with .043 SCE headgaskets. I'm leaning towards another TR230, but I would like to go with a reverse split that would compliment the higher compression and headflow of the new motor ie. more lift and slightly more duration but still a (relatively) close LSA and tight ICL. I also would like to keep the awesome midrange and of course squeak into the 10s n/a. Your above stated grind looks like a step in the right direction for me, and may be exactly what I'm looking for. Any insight? Thanks,
Larry
Larry
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Verdad Gallardo Thread Starter
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Joined: Mar 2004
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From: BFE
Originally Posted by VIPRETR2
Since my experience with a TR230, I'm all in favor of reverse split cams. Since we are on the topic I'll pose a question. My stock headed '02 TA ran very well with the TR230 low 11's@~123 on a 3500lb raceweight. The torque curve was unbelievable on the street as well. I am currently putting together a stock bottom, stock lightweight valve headed LS6, with .043 SCE headgaskets. I'm leaning towards another TR230, but I would like to go with a reverse split that would compliment the higher compression and headflow of the new motor ie. more lift and slightly more duration but still a (relatively) close LSA and tight ICL. I also would like to keep the awesome midrange and of course squeak into the 10s n/a. Your above stated grind looks like a step in the right direction for me, and may be exactly what I'm looking for. Any insight? Thanks,
Larry
Larry
Well, I can tell you that from the VEs, theoreticaly this 232/228 would make a good 12>15 rwhp across the band and pull beyond the TR230. (if not more)
TR230 is only 5* overlap, this one is 14*
This is a prototype design, I'm fooling around with, and these type of VEs work real well on small emission cams as well.
I'm a bit busy now but i'll follow up some more later
At .050 lift the VEs are as follow
7>IVO
45>IVC
41>EVO
7>EVC
107 ECL
108 LSA
109 ICL
14* overlap
Originally Posted by Omega Doom
what are the spec's and do you have a dyno sheet?
Thanks PREDATOR-Z, I look forward to more input.
Larry
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Joined: Mar 2004
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From: BFE
Originally Posted by 99blancoSS
Reverse splits work but they dont seem to work as well from all that I've seen.
I knew that comment would drop in. Look at some TR cams, they believe in those, actualy, if I decide to cut one, I'm thinking of doing it on their lobes, or maybe XE-R intake and TR lobe exhaust.
FYI, some of the fastest Mustangs are reverse split cammed (OMG I said the M word). Also look at MTI Stealth II, one of the best stealth around.
I addition .050 doesn't tell the whole story, fyi, Futral FM13 is a reverse at .200 lift (IIRC).
Reverse will make more trq in the curve, might have a tad less peak (but how much time do we spend there), and their flat power curve is amazing when VEs done right.
Now I haven't completely ironed out this one, but I like what I see so far.
Just to show: this is a graph of a TR230, cam only, MAC, TB and other bolt on on a A4 with a 4000 stall:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/attachmen...chmentid=62788
This one of a TR 227 (Untuned) simple boltons.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...ighlight=tr230
Just look at the power curves and trq of these "reverse"
On TR230 over 300lbs trq by 2800rpm (wooow)
Last edited by PREDATOR-Z; Feb 4, 2007 at 12:18 PM.
I'm not saying they dont work, and Thunder IMO has the best cams, its just that same cam with a traditional split produces more power from the results that I've seen.
We' would need a side by side comparison to see where it all shakes down. You know what I mean, same degree of split in both directions and see what the results are.
We' would need a side by side comparison to see where it all shakes down. You know what I mean, same degree of split in both directions and see what the results are.
Originally Posted by eLTwerker
PREDATOR-Z,why don't you spend some time in the LT1/LT4 section...please! I'd love to hear your input on some of the cam ideas I have come up with for my application.
im tellin u man!! predator-z is DA MAN!! we need to start naming cams after him and patrick..lol..
btw mark, do u think that cam u mentioned will make more under the curve than your torquer v2?
Thread Starter
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Joined: Mar 2004
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From: BFE
Originally Posted by 99blancoSS
I'm not saying they dont work, and Thunder IMO has the best cams, its just that same cam with a traditional split produces more power from the results that I've seen.
We' would need a side by side comparison to see where it all shakes down. You know what I mean, same degree of split in both directions and see what the results are.
We' would need a side by side comparison to see where it all shakes down. You know what I mean, same degree of split in both directions and see what the results are.
But compare just for argument's sake TR230/224 with a TV2 cam only all else equal.
From what I see around the TV2 might have 5>10 more peak but the TR owns it below the curve especialy in trq. Then again TR230 is smaller (by 1 size)
This argument has been hashed before and many knowledgeable poeple agreed that traditional split may have a few ponies at peak but that reverse will slam it under the curve. Since the majority of consumers only looks at peak, they mostly say "that cam is better".
I know of quite a few reverse combos with small cams by today's standard that are in the 10's. (WILWAXU) is a good exemple with the MTI X1 and 2E head combo.
Thread Starter
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Joined: Mar 2004
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From: BFE
Originally Posted by TXZ28LS1
im tellin u man!! predator-z is DA MAN!! we need to start naming cams after him and patrick..lol..
btw mark, do u think that cam u mentioned will make more under the curve than your torquer v2?
btw mark, do u think that cam u mentioned will make more under the curve than your torquer v2?
This is certainly an idea. I'm sure a reverse split "torquer" cam would work well, especially on an exhaust setup like mine and many others on here. I don't think it would work quite as well on a Y pipe car though.
Jason
Jason
*subscribing*
I like the idea so far, if it pans out.
Out of curiousity, would this be used with a modded car, such as with good heads, intake, headers, etc.? I only ask because I've always heard the old adage that reverse split is good for stock intakes since they need the extra time open on intake to get more fuel in, but I don't know that I really believe that theory.
I like the idea so far, if it pans out.
Out of curiousity, would this be used with a modded car, such as with good heads, intake, headers, etc.? I only ask because I've always heard the old adage that reverse split is good for stock intakes since they need the extra time open on intake to get more fuel in, but I don't know that I really believe that theory.
Originally Posted by PREDATOR-Z
I know of quite a few reverse combos with small cams by today's standard that are in the 10's. (WILWAXU) is a good exemple with the MTI X1 and 2E head combo.