VINCE

iTrader: (1)

Oh yeah. Some have emailed me asking if the place I purchased the heads from have a website.. Yes they do.. Go to the Street heads section and notice the caution sign after the dual springs that are now there secondary to my R&D.. Also ask your self why the Stage 3 heads use a 1.43in spring and the Stage 2 heads use a 1.46inch spring? Hmmmm..

www.flow-technics.com

Sears

It's good to see you finally came out Vince. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />

guadofreak

iTrader: (1)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Jsears8:
<strong>It's good to see you finally came out Vince. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Came out of the closet??! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="gr_eek2.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="gr_tounge.gif" />

j/k Vince(please don't kick my ***! LOL ) <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[devil]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_devil.gif" />

1moreblackta

sorry to hear it man.....

i would offer you my heads to borrow....

seeing as how i wasted my motor...

and dont need them...

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />

again, sorry to hear it..

VINCE

iTrader: (1)

You guys are a trip.. I can always come here for some cheering up.. Even with weak heads I can still lay the smack down on most of you.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />

Terry Burger

iTrader: (4)

Good heads don't have to cost a lot. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" /> How did the heads flow?

VINCE

iTrader: (1)

Well Terry the heads flowed as followed b4 I sent them to CNC..

Intake

.400 258
.500 273
.550 288
.600 297
.650 307

and the exhaust peaked at 222cfm at .600

The above data was given to me by Flow-Technics. I wondered why he never gave me any below .400 #'s. CNC said that below .450 lift my heads flowed 10 to 15cfm less than everybody else. Now post CNC fixing the heads and flowing the heads on their bench they informed Norris Motorsports that my heads flowed .600 lift 304cfm which is comparable to the other vendors heads but most of my driving will be in the lower lift area and that is where I will notice my power loss. You guys tell me. What should I have seen out of these heads? Is there more in my car with a cutout, ls1edit, ported TB, and possible other mods..? Remember my dyno's were with 3.42's. I just added the 4.10's so I am sure I have lost some, but I am hoping that loss is picked up in the engine break in..

RyanJ

big valves help flow figures. and im not sure about this, but i dont know if a shrouding issue could be seen on a flow bench.

VINCE

iTrader: (1)

I have no clue as well. Maybe one of the expert can tell us..

VINCE

iTrader: (1)

That is all I need now is to find out that I have shrouding going on...

Ryan K

iTrader: (11)

OK, Thats cool, its a free country and honestley people can say whatever they feel. I have said good things about Flow-Technics in the past and I will continue too when people ask. They are not a sponsor here and I have never openly pimped thier product in these forums(other than the sig.).

I do have a few questions though:

1. When installing the heads, who checked the Rocker-arm to valve spring clearance? This is key, any one who has built a motor does this when asembling a new combination. I surely don't rely on any one when there are things I can check to make sure everything goes together smoothly. At the time I had my heads done, there were maybe 4 cars running around with dual springs. I saw the clearance issue when I put mine together. And did what I had to do to make it work. If I had not, I sure wouldn't blame it on somebody else.

2. Piston to Valve clearance, who checked that? An other biggy when assembling the motor. It was not the heads' fault you had to spend $9500 to rebuild your short block, this one falls squarely on the mechanic turning the wrench. New combinations of motors are put together everyday, variables change. Who asked to have an other .040 shaved off thier heads? How many cars are running around with 5.3 heads with 2.08 valves and shaved .040? My guess is none.

3. How much money did Flow-Technics spend to try to make things right? I don't really know but I bet it was alot. The bent valves, the replaced spings come at a cost. These things were damaged because they weren't checked at assembly on your end. I am sure if Flow-Technics had maybe a little more experience with LS1's specifically, things may have gone smoother. But I think that a little more insight on your end would have helped.

I really hope not to offend any one with this post(its not meant too). I just like seeing both sides of the coin. I honestly belive all this heartacke could have been avoided by the installer. You said yourself that CNC didn't see any problems with the heads(in an other post). As for the HP gain, I don't know what the problem is, the flow numbers are there. I really hope everything works out and someday you are happy with the car. Maybe we'll meet out at the track sometime and have a beer afterwards. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" />

Ryan K.

<small>[ July 05, 2002, 03:23 AM: Message edited by: Ryan Karasek ]</small>

VINCE

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for responding Ryan K.. You mentioned you never openly pimped the heads. When Musclecartechnolies INITIALLY started offering heads YOU personally came in and PIMPED the heads. I do not know why MuscleCar dropped Flow Technics, but I was told by the owner it was because I was not going through them to purchase his products. Did I not email you on several occasions about Flow Technics experience on our cars and you told me how awesome Flow Technics was? So that is Pimping. Now let me answer your few questions.. Richie Carbone before installing the heads on the car ASKED Dave the owner of Flow-technics if there was anything he had to do differently with the heads than a normal install. Dave told him no. Post finding out we were having rocker arm clearance problems I called Dave at Flow Technics and asked then about swapping heads and him sending me another set. That is when he said he would be taking a loss and would rather fix these heads.

Question #2. I sent the rocker arms and new pushrods to Dave the owner of Flow Technics and asked him to mill off what I could safely run with a 221/.558 lsa 112 cam with my current valves. I had to send Dave my rocker arms because he did not have a set around to check clearance.. Dave the owner of Flow Technics was suppose to clearance the rocker arms the 2nd time around. The pushrods I sent Dave was 7.35. How much do you need to take off on a head that has been unmilled to work with my valves to work with these pushrods? Dave chose to take off .040, not me. I did not know what he took off until it was too late. Even then Dave the owner at Flow Technics insisted that this combo will still work. You mentioned why my valve size. It was Dave the owner of Flow Technics that kept insisting to use 2.08 x 1.60's. Really, we do not know if I would have had piston to valve clearance problems if the rocker arms would have been properly clearanced the 2nd time around. They were still hitting post coming back from Flow Technics. Valves would have hit if they were getting hung open. You ask how many cars are running around with my setup. You are right.. None. Dave the owner of Flow Technics said he was going to build me a better setup than everyone else. How is it not the heads fault that I had to build a new shortblock? Shortblock was fine before the new heads. Still finger pointing at my mechanics. If I sell you a package it is suppose to work. Flow Technics admitted that they should have known about the clearance issues and that is the reason they asked me to send the rocker arms with the heads back to them.

Question #3.. Flow Technics put mostly labor in trying to help me. Before he forked out a dime Dave was making every excuse in the book and had me running all over town trying to troubleshoot what was wrong with the car. That cost me time and money. Not him. Then when I sent him the heads back he kept them for 3 weeks. Another thing is I did not choose the 1.46in springs. Dave at flow tech could have chose Comp 987's or something that did not have clearance issues. You mentioned in your Question #3 that if Flow Technics would have had a little more experience things would have gone smoother. The key word is EXPERIENCE. Flow-Technics told me they had it. You do not sell a product to a customer w/out knowing if it works.

Ryan K. I asked Dave on the phone several times about this setup before purchasing and he told me to let him do the heads, because thats what he does. Dave at Flow Technics spoke with 3 installers and told them that his heads are installed just like any other heads. Flow-Technics should have changed springs. The 987's would have fit fine, but Flow Technics insisted on using the same springs. Flow Technics should have swapped heads like I suggested since they insisted there was nothing wrong with the heads they sold me they could have sold them to someone else.

Then after everything is fixed I still end up with a product that does not put out.. You also mentioned a little more insight on my end would have helped. I am the customer. I do not port and polish heads for a living. I do not make suggestions on what would work with a particular setup when I do not know.. My insight should have been Flow Technics do not have any dyno #'s and very little customers. Bottom line is if I would not have any clearance issues with the rocker arms I would not be making this post. By Flow Technics own admission they should have known. The suggestions that I made was not even considered because they were the cheapest way out for me. Flow Technics was looking to spend as little as possible to help me. When it turned into a profit loss they turned their backs. You know what? Flow Technics even had the nerve to tell me that when I decide to build a bigger motor they would cut me a break on some Stage 3 heads because of all my issues with these heads. Go figure.. Ryan K. I have no issues with you.. Your setup is working fine. Flow Technics claimed they could put out a product with the same quality or better than others when they sold me the heads. They did not. All the vendors on this board look out for the customer. Thunder Racing, Futral Motorsports, MTI, MMS, ARE, Cartek, TEA, Raging Motorsports, LG Motorsports, Speed Demon Motorsports, Speed Inc, JPR, Jantzer, will not put out a product before testing it first. If I missed any I am sorry. I am also sure they would not have kept blaming things on the installer. Flow Technics has my address and phone #. If they still feel they have one of the best heads in the business. Send me another set and take these since nothing is wrong with them. Oh yeah, 2.02 x 1.57 valves pls..

WS6 TransAm Girl

Sorry to hear about your problems Vince Hindsight is 20/20 so it's easy to say you should have done this, or that... but consider this a lesson learned. What are your plans now? You said you are going FI, but are you going to keep the heads you have and have them reworked?
Either way, best of luck with the car and I hope you get all of the problems worked out!

Mike K.

Yeah how can buying broken heads be the installers fault lol,,, Vince when you go forced induction all your troubles will go away,, If you do keep these heads I bet you could squeeze at least 420 rwhp with cutouts and tuning. Hopefully they do not cause you any more $'s. Also think of it this way,, now you have a forged shortblock which may have been a mod you decided to get anyways for safety reasons down the road, now you don't have to worry about it and your motor is almost boost ready. All in all you probalby helped alot of people in the future because of your R&R on the rocker arms and your motor is near bulletproof. Plus you still have a really nice high hp car. Catch you at work...

<small>[ July 05, 2002, 11:01 AM: Message edited by: Mike K. ]</small>

Linear Velocity

iTrader: (1)

Vince, sorry again to hear about your dilemma. FWIW I did not get my heads through and a sponsor and came out with some pretty good numbers untuned, they were also cheaper than any of the sponsors here too <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" /> . The flow numbers you posted aren't bad by any means. I personally would just get some Dyantech stepped headers (you'll want these N/A but even more if you go with a blower) and custom in house tuning via LS1 edit to get your fuel/timing up to speed and then see what it does before you discount the heads as sucking. BTW I am going to Andy's Auto Performance today and will get you my ATAP logs for you. Good luck. ~Tony

VINCE

iTrader: (1)

Ryan K.. Lets not go back and forth with this.. Does ARE send a note out to their customers post installing dual springs about clearancing? Yes they do.. Why do other vendors use Comp 987's? Because they do not require clearancing the rocker arms. I did research this topic on the boards. At that time there was nothing conclusive on my issue. Plus, I did not know what springs were installed on my car until after the heads were already on the car. Ryan K. you cant say I was having Piston to Valve clearance issues. Why? The 226 cam did not go in the car until Norris Motorsports put JE pistons in with valve reliefs.. Even before the heads were milled there was a smiley on one piston. We came to the conclusion this happened because the rocker arms were hitting the retainers and caused the valve to hang open during the up swing of the piston. Dave fixed several valve guides and replaced valves because of this. This was all before the heads were ever milled. The heads came back and the rocker arms were still not clearanced enough. I should have went behind Flow Technics after all of my previous problems. Thats my trust issue. If I would have maybe this would have not gone so far, but after my phone conversation with Dave he told me there is no way the rocker arms are hitting now. I trusted him again and paid for it because when we removed the valve covers evidence of the rocker arms hitting the retainers were there. Therefore causing the same issue as before.. Valves getting hung open and the piston coming up to meet them. This would have happened I believe even if I had valve reliefs in the pistons secondary to the rocker arms still hitting the retainers. So piston to valve issue was caused by rocker arms hitting retainers and not from Big cam. I had the 221/.558 lsa 112 which is not a Big cam.. I understand you want to defend your friend. In the beginning I liked Dave. I really thought he cared, but as it dragged on I started to feel him push away. Started to treat me like I was a problem. I know I can be difficult at times. The way the heads are setup currently was ALL SUGGESTED BY DAVE.. I kept asking Flow Technics if this will work and they told me yes.. Now that everything mechanical is working the heads still have not performed the way Flow Technics promised.. Flow Technics told me I would easily get 430rwhp. I am 28rwhp short.. If with tuning and a cutout these heads reach that mark I will Publicly Help Flow Technics Sell heads. I will even help pay the monthly fee for Flow Technics to be a sponsor on this website and you can hold me to that..

383LQ4SS

iTrader: (33)

Not gonna get into specifics...but I was with Vinnie through his entire ordeal. Flow Tech had very poor support for a very poorly prepped product. Basically using Vince as a Guinea Pig and then washed thier hands of him when it didnt work out. If Flow Tech knew before hand that these heads would be more of an "experiment" for them, a "First time trial" they should have relayed that to Vince and the installers. But they were portrayed as a fully prepped and ready to go product(both times), which they clearly were not. Oh well..live and learn.

VINCE

iTrader: (1)

Ryan K. I do not know what Flow Technics told you, but I remember all our conversations and I have all of Flow Technics emails. Flow Technics have also spoken to the installers. Everytime Flow Technics gets off the phone with them he tells me that I am in good hands, but when something went wrong he pointed at the installers. Now right now I might have some tuning to do, but non tuned H/C cars with similar setups dyno 15 to 20rwhp more than me with 4.10's. Now that the heads are so called mechanically working right. Where are my big #'s I was promised? I would have been happy with 410whp with no cutout. That would have been a 20rwhp increase over my old setup. Arrrhh.. Let me stop gripping.. My new setup will still beat most Fords.. My next setup is going to be deadly. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" /> Oh yeah Ryan K., what did your new heads from Flow Technic bring you on the dyno? I do not want to hear about that 3800lb weight running high 11's with slicks. 2.08's work well with Nitrous.. I would like to know what you picked up from the mods you had b4 the flow tech heads to when you purchased them. I see you keep changing cams and everything else with your setup. Maybe you are in DENIAL..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" /> When this is all over we can sit down and talk about how we both were had... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="gr_images/icons/mad.gif" />

VINCE

iTrader: (1)

The plot thickens.... I just rec'd an email from someone who I will leave out of it.. This is from Dave@Flow-Technics..

----- Original Message -----
From: David Endrigo
To: xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Friday, July 05, 2002 1:18 PM
Subject: Re: ????

Hi XXXXX, boy do my tail feathers feel hot! Thanks for pointing this out to me. I don't know where to start. To say all of his problems are my fault is the easy way out. Let's
start with the installers. The first go around was with the rocker arms hitting the retainers. Yes, I can warn people. But you've got to have some basic motor skills when you hot rod. Everybody thought it was valve float, so I sent another set of springs and install money. They still did'nt catch it. Same problem. Some where down the line somebody caught it. Off come the heads back to me. I tweeked them and milled them
.060 per his request and clearanced the rocker arms. Still a problem. I asked if anybody
checked P to V clearance. Since nobody had posted such a problem it must not exsist.
Throwing caution to the wind they proceded. Next thing I know I get a photo of a piston
with obvious valve contact marks and erosion from detination. I guess he's got to blame
somebody. I feel bad for the guy but what can I say. If my heads suck how did Ryan
Karasek run 11.95 on the motor and 10.96 on the bottle with my stage 2 heads? I think the answer is obvious. If you can't turn a wrench please stay away from me. If you would like to share this, feel free to post it.

This is a trip.. First off.. We did think the problem was initially valve float, but when we took the valve covers off that is when we found the real problem. He said yes he can warn people, but I have to have some basic motor skills? I did send the heads back to him because they were messed up and I NEVER TOLD HIM HOW MUCH TO MILL THE HEADS TOO. This is the first I have heard of my heads being MILLED .060. Flow Technics told me .040 on the phone and also told my installers the same. If we would have known they were milled that much I would have checked piston to valve clearance. Now I am really pissed. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="gr_images/icons/mad.gif" /> Knowing that he sent my heads back to me milled more than he told me they were milled is really F'd up!!!!! Now that makes the performance suck even more.. Arrrrrhhhhh!!!!!

Sears

Vince, I can't believe what you have went through. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="gr_images/icons/mad.gif" /> If it were me I would remove those heads ASAP and get a set of 6.0L GTP heads with Comp 987s. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" /> You would be happy and done with it!

Justin