LG Motorsports G5 vs. FAStech F1 cam
08-04-2002, 09:34 AM
#21
Re: LG Motorsports G5 vs. FAStech F1 cam So would the G5 be more of a racing cam(making the most power up top)
and the F1 be more of a 'street cam'cuz it makes power mid range and falls off after 5k?
I'm just starting to do heavy research on cams for the winter.
I'm interested in a 'race' cam.
I want the most powerful cam available.Steetablility is not a concern.
and the F1 be more of a 'street cam'cuz it makes power mid range and falls off after 5k?
I'm just starting to do heavy research on cams for the winter.
I'm interested in a 'race' cam.
I want the most powerful cam available.Steetablility is not a concern.
08-04-2002, 09:54 AM
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Re: LG Motorsports G5 vs. FAStech F1 cam Everyone hurry and look at Louis!!!!!!
He is crying like his dad used too when he couldn't make the power <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="gr_tounge.gif" />
Chris
He is crying like his dad used too when he couldn't make the power <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="gr_tounge.gif" />
Chris
08-04-2002, 10:12 AM
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Re: LG Motorsports G5 vs. FAStech F1 cam The G5 is a GREAT CAM...as far as I'm concerned, I might as well have come in here comparing a T1 to the F1 - both are great cams.
I loved the G5 - I still can't believe stock headed cars are making over 400, I remember the days of the first CNC heads/cam jobs making 360 rwhp. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
The G5 was great, and I was happy with it - I just found something that is bigger. Hell, I have a G5 for sale and would recommend it to anyone.
I loved the G5 - I still can't believe stock headed cars are making over 400, I remember the days of the first CNC heads/cam jobs making 360 rwhp. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
The G5 was great, and I was happy with it - I just found something that is bigger. Hell, I have a G5 for sale and would recommend it to anyone.
08-04-2002, 10:53 AM
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Re: LG Motorsports G5 vs. FAStech F1 cam Matt
I wasn't going to get into this but you have to be held to a higher standard, if you are going to make claims that require varifying.
First, your dyno runs leave out runs #10 and 11. And everyone knows that the 3rd run is usually the highest due to PCM WOT learn. Therefore it looks as if you needed 3 runs to top the G5 with only 1 run.
Why don't you post all of the graphs so all can see every run for each car?
There has been speculation, on other boards, that without unbiased spectators there, and a truly controlled test that the only claim that you can make is that you have a graph that says what it says, but no verification as to the scientific method of lack thereof. You may unknowingly even be fooling yourself with flawed testing, if your goal is in fact to find out the corect answer to the question rather than the answer you want to hear.
Your claims would not need a scientific method if you only made claims about your results, and not in direct comparison to the G5 as a "Shootout". A shootout implys TWO gunslingers. So you say you won a gunfight by yourself.
In addition, since LGM did not intall the G5 in
the test car, it may have been installed with too much advance, and therefore would not show the high end numbers. Jims numbers for the G5 were disapointing, so we can only assume that the installation was not correct.
Furthermore to make things clear on the Lobes. YES the lobes on your fastech cam are a combination of one of MTI's Lobes, and an LGM lobe from over 1 year ago. It is amazing that you can claim "Designer" status just by calling Comp cams and ASKING for advice, and letting them tell you what do buy.
So there you have it. You did a test that wasn't really a test. It appears that you only dynoed the G5 one time, but you dynoed the fastech cam 3 times to get a better graph. And all this with no one there to keep you honest.
I could do the same thing in my shop, in reverse, and you all would cry the foul, only louder.
I think it is good that you ordered a cam from comp that comes close to the G5 after over a year. We have been waiting to release our G5-X cam, but did not want to let it out until someone caught up. It looks like Comp Cams caught up.
Please do not think that you have now got the last cam that is ever made for the LS1. Our next cam will not come from Comp. They will only hold our lobes proprietary for 1 year. That is why you were even able to buy our lobe at all until the one year was up.
Let me make clear that you now have one of the LG lobes in your cam, and that makes me, my cam guy and MTI the designers of YOUR?? cam.
Your welcomed.
Lou G
PS, leave my son out of this. He has forgotten more than you know. And he is only 18. It is normal for a youngster with his knowledge to get mad when he knows the truth.
<small>[ August 04, 2002, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: LG Motorsports ]</small>
I wasn't going to get into this but you have to be held to a higher standard, if you are going to make claims that require varifying.
First, your dyno runs leave out runs #10 and 11. And everyone knows that the 3rd run is usually the highest due to PCM WOT learn. Therefore it looks as if you needed 3 runs to top the G5 with only 1 run.
Why don't you post all of the graphs so all can see every run for each car?
There has been speculation, on other boards, that without unbiased spectators there, and a truly controlled test that the only claim that you can make is that you have a graph that says what it says, but no verification as to the scientific method of lack thereof. You may unknowingly even be fooling yourself with flawed testing, if your goal is in fact to find out the corect answer to the question rather than the answer you want to hear.
Your claims would not need a scientific method if you only made claims about your results, and not in direct comparison to the G5 as a "Shootout". A shootout implys TWO gunslingers. So you say you won a gunfight by yourself.
In addition, since LGM did not intall the G5 in
the test car, it may have been installed with too much advance, and therefore would not show the high end numbers. Jims numbers for the G5 were disapointing, so we can only assume that the installation was not correct.
Furthermore to make things clear on the Lobes. YES the lobes on your fastech cam are a combination of one of MTI's Lobes, and an LGM lobe from over 1 year ago. It is amazing that you can claim "Designer" status just by calling Comp cams and ASKING for advice, and letting them tell you what do buy.
So there you have it. You did a test that wasn't really a test. It appears that you only dynoed the G5 one time, but you dynoed the fastech cam 3 times to get a better graph. And all this with no one there to keep you honest.
I could do the same thing in my shop, in reverse, and you all would cry the foul, only louder.
I think it is good that you ordered a cam from comp that comes close to the G5 after over a year. We have been waiting to release our G5-X cam, but did not want to let it out until someone caught up. It looks like Comp Cams caught up.
Please do not think that you have now got the last cam that is ever made for the LS1. Our next cam will not come from Comp. They will only hold our lobes proprietary for 1 year. That is why you were even able to buy our lobe at all until the one year was up.
Let me make clear that you now have one of the LG lobes in your cam, and that makes me, my cam guy and MTI the designers of YOUR?? cam.
Your welcomed.
Lou G
PS, leave my son out of this. He has forgotten more than you know. And he is only 18. It is normal for a youngster with his knowledge to get mad when he knows the truth.
<small>[ August 04, 2002, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: LG Motorsports ]</small>
08-04-2002, 11:20 AM
#27
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Re: LG Motorsports G5 vs. FAStech F1 cam We actually made 3 pulls with each cam, Lou - and using the standard that you set in the above post (makes most power on 3rd pull).
G5 made, in order: 405/404/403
F1 made, in order: 419/419/420
The cam was installed wrong? How is that possible? I don't have an adjustible timing set - it was setup dot to dot - I've installed a ton of cams in LSx motors, so you're reaching by saying it was installed incorrectly... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
I can't believe you just used the "wasn't installed at LG, so it probably was installed wrong" excuse - you're REALLY reaching. In fact - when we were sitting in YOUR office talking about the G5 cam the day I bought it - you WANTED ME to install it myself, so that there wouldn't be any excusing about your shop installing it and getting "juiced numbers" out of your own product.
Your son kicks *** - I have more respect for your son than any other 18 year old I've ever come into contact with. He truly impresses me, as does your work and your business - but this attitude about this G5/F1 business is only hurting you.
<small>[ August 04, 2002, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: TAMUz06 ]</small>
G5 made, in order: 405/404/403
F1 made, in order: 419/419/420
The cam was installed wrong? How is that possible? I don't have an adjustible timing set - it was setup dot to dot - I've installed a ton of cams in LSx motors, so you're reaching by saying it was installed incorrectly... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
I can't believe you just used the "wasn't installed at LG, so it probably was installed wrong" excuse - you're REALLY reaching. In fact - when we were sitting in YOUR office talking about the G5 cam the day I bought it - you WANTED ME to install it myself, so that there wouldn't be any excusing about your shop installing it and getting "juiced numbers" out of your own product.
Your son kicks *** - I have more respect for your son than any other 18 year old I've ever come into contact with. He truly impresses me, as does your work and your business - but this attitude about this G5/F1 business is only hurting you.
<small>[ August 04, 2002, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: TAMUz06 ]</small>
08-04-2002, 11:29 AM
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Re: LG Motorsports G5 vs. FAStech F1 cam Jim,
This has nothing to do against you, but from your statement, you just showed that the "Lowest" pull from the G5 was used against the "Highest" number for the other cam. This calls into question the whole method, if even the dyno graphs used were picked to make the other cam look good.
With no one there to verify the method, you should not call it a "Shootout"
Lou G
This has nothing to do against you, but from your statement, you just showed that the "Lowest" pull from the G5 was used against the "Highest" number for the other cam. This calls into question the whole method, if even the dyno graphs used were picked to make the other cam look good.
With no one there to verify the method, you should not call it a "Shootout"
Lou G
08-04-2002, 11:36 AM
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Re: LG Motorsports G5 vs. FAStech F1 cam Agreed - it wasn't a shootout, my fault for bad wording.
It was just a comparison for me. It's a bigger cam, plain and simple, it SHOULD make more power...
To the point of which run was used. We made two runs back to back - then waited 5 mins for cooldown for BOTH cams. The G5 had the temperature advantage with it being 13 degrees cooler (yeah, corrected, but the correction gets less accurate as you move away from ideal). Actually, in the interest of "scientific method" it's better that we used the 3rd pull for the results, we were certainly expecting the numbers to improve as it learned.
The torque numbers with both cams didn't move more than 1rwtq between runs - but you have the HP numbers from all 6 runs above. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
It was just a comparison for me. It's a bigger cam, plain and simple, it SHOULD make more power...
To the point of which run was used. We made two runs back to back - then waited 5 mins for cooldown for BOTH cams. The G5 had the temperature advantage with it being 13 degrees cooler (yeah, corrected, but the correction gets less accurate as you move away from ideal). Actually, in the interest of "scientific method" it's better that we used the 3rd pull for the results, we were certainly expecting the numbers to improve as it learned.
The torque numbers with both cams didn't move more than 1rwtq between runs - but you have the HP numbers from all 6 runs above. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
08-04-2002, 11:58 AM
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Re: LG Motorsports G5 vs. FAStech F1 cam </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Ryan:
<strong>224/230 581/570 112
the G5 would work a tad better on lower flowing heads due to the big split.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">We will have some more results shortly with the F1. We have several going in different applications as we speak. I will be sure to report back with our findings. We will have an A4 car with some S2 GTP heads done shortly, and an A4 with stock LS1 heads as well <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" /> I am curious to see how the cam does on a set of stock LS1 heads.......
<strong>224/230 581/570 112
the G5 would work a tad better on lower flowing heads due to the big split.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">We will have some more results shortly with the F1. We have several going in different applications as we speak. I will be sure to report back with our findings. We will have an A4 car with some S2 GTP heads done shortly, and an A4 with stock LS1 heads as well <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" /> I am curious to see how the cam does on a set of stock LS1 heads.......
08-04-2002, 01:17 PM
#31
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Re: LG Motorsports G5 vs. FAStech F1 cam LG and Fastech are very skill, but let me check
Hong Kong Book of Kung Fu,
ah yes, my Kung Fu is best! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
Jay Johnson
(ca-can't we all g-g-get along?)
Hong Kong Book of Kung Fu,
ah yes, my Kung Fu is best! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
Jay Johnson
(ca-can't we all g-g-get along?)
08-04-2002, 01:18 PM
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Re: LG Motorsports G5 vs. FAStech F1 cam </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by VINCE:
<strong>I think the comparison was great.., but I do not think it proved which cam was better.. Looking at the dyno both cams are nice.. I also looked at Jason99ta dyno.. Looks like he has you both beat down low.. Anyway.. My point is some cams work better with some heads. I am sure you will find an example where the G5 is going to dyno higher in somebodies heads.. Logic dictates that most of the time if you go with a bigger cam it will peak higher.. That is what this comparison showed me.. I am really concerned about how other tuners treat each other.. We are all in it for the fun.. When you bash another you in turn try to hurt another persons ability to feed their family. Thats not good.. Sometime after reading post like this it makes me want to call up Comp Cams to have them grind me my own cam.. Just so I wont get into a debate of whos cam is better..</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That is exactly what I did Vince so that way no one could say it was their cam I was using in my car.
<strong>I think the comparison was great.., but I do not think it proved which cam was better.. Looking at the dyno both cams are nice.. I also looked at Jason99ta dyno.. Looks like he has you both beat down low.. Anyway.. My point is some cams work better with some heads. I am sure you will find an example where the G5 is going to dyno higher in somebodies heads.. Logic dictates that most of the time if you go with a bigger cam it will peak higher.. That is what this comparison showed me.. I am really concerned about how other tuners treat each other.. We are all in it for the fun.. When you bash another you in turn try to hurt another persons ability to feed their family. Thats not good.. Sometime after reading post like this it makes me want to call up Comp Cams to have them grind me my own cam.. Just so I wont get into a debate of whos cam is better..</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That is exactly what I did Vince so that way no one could say it was their cam I was using in my car.
08-04-2002, 01:20 PM
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Re: LG Motorsports G5 vs. FAStech F1 cam </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Jay Johnson:
<strong>LG and Fastech are very skill, but let me check
Hong Kong Book of Kung Fu,
ah yes, my Kung Fu is best! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
Jay Johnson
(ca-can't we all g-g-get along?)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Whatever I cant lose with my twisted fist.How you been Jay?
<strong>LG and Fastech are very skill, but let me check
Hong Kong Book of Kung Fu,
ah yes, my Kung Fu is best! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
Jay Johnson
(ca-can't we all g-g-get along?)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Whatever I cant lose with my twisted fist.How you been Jay?
08-04-2002, 01:34 PM
#35
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Re: LG Motorsports G5 vs. FAStech F1 cam I demonstrate technique from ancient lost Chinese
Kung Fu finger book, and show how inferior twisted
fist compare WA TAAAaaa.....
I've been good, just worried about the job/economy.
Losing a job would put a major damper on my race
program.
Jay Johnson
Kung Fu finger book, and show how inferior twisted
fist compare WA TAAAaaa.....
I've been good, just worried about the job/economy.
Losing a job would put a major damper on my race
program.
Jay Johnson
08-04-2002, 01:37 PM
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Re: LG Motorsports G5 vs. FAStech F1 cam </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Jay Johnson:
<strong>I demonstrate technique from ancient lost Chinese
Kung Fu finger book, and show how inferior twisted
fist compare WA TAAAaaa.....
I've been good, just worried about the job/economy.
Losing a job would put a major damper on my race
program.
Jay Johnson</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yeah bro I know how that is and all I do is deliver pizza so I can imagine it for you.Do you ever go out to the race...I mean car shows anymore?
<strong>I demonstrate technique from ancient lost Chinese
Kung Fu finger book, and show how inferior twisted
fist compare WA TAAAaaa.....
I've been good, just worried about the job/economy.
Losing a job would put a major damper on my race
program.
Jay Johnson</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yeah bro I know how that is and all I do is deliver pizza so I can imagine it for you.Do you ever go out to the race...I mean car shows anymore?
08-04-2002, 01:50 PM
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Re: LG Motorsports G5 vs. FAStech F1 cam What a crybaby!
[img] http://www.tdprs.state.tx.us/It's_Up_to_You/images/Crybaby-Main_03.jpg [/img]
<small>[ August 04, 2002, 01:55 PM: Message edited by: David Z28 ]</small>
[img] http://www.tdprs.state.tx.us/It's_Up_to_You/images/Crybaby-Main_03.jpg [/img]
<small>[ August 04, 2002, 01:55 PM: Message edited by: David Z28 ]</small>
08-04-2002, 10:02 PM
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Re: LG Motorsports G5 vs. FAStech F1 cam </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Ryan:
<strong>MTI's cam is likley XE-R ramps. Matt's cam was going to be XE-R intake and XE exhaust....and just by lift numbers i think im right. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually the MTI X1 is a XER intake and XE exhaust also, the F1 is almost the exact same cam except the "F1" has one less degree of exhaust duration.
<strong>MTI's cam is likley XE-R ramps. Matt's cam was going to be XE-R intake and XE exhaust....and just by lift numbers i think im right. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually the MTI X1 is a XER intake and XE exhaust also, the F1 is almost the exact same cam except the "F1" has one less degree of exhaust duration.
08-04-2002, 10:22 PM
#40
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Re: LG Motorsports G5 vs. FAStech F1 cam Ahhh just like the old days at LS1 :Smile:
LG and TAMU take a deep breath.. Some will take the info as godly some will take it with a grain
of salt. I too noted the graphs having a diffrent
dyno number, I use fastech too.
I think its a great test, I have not seen anybody
go to the heart ache of swapping out cams for
a test. The validity of the test is undetermined
but it appears they did the best they could under the conditions. I dont think anybody has set out to say one man's cam sucks and another does not.
I think it was more in the spirit of
Hey this is what I got.. under these conditions.
Some thing that could be added would be trap tests
under simular conditions , for example.
I am glad to hear that the cams were installed
dot-2-dot.
I have some questions.
(1.) what springs did you have to run this high lift of both cams.
(2.) what kind of reliablity do you suppose the have. ( example 14K miles on hotcam setup no prob )
(3.) anybody have any MPG data on these setups
Thanks for the technical discussions.. I truely
enjoy them
Terry
LG and TAMU take a deep breath.. Some will take the info as godly some will take it with a grain
of salt. I too noted the graphs having a diffrent
dyno number, I use fastech too.
I think its a great test, I have not seen anybody
go to the heart ache of swapping out cams for
a test. The validity of the test is undetermined
but it appears they did the best they could under the conditions. I dont think anybody has set out to say one man's cam sucks and another does not.
I think it was more in the spirit of
Hey this is what I got.. under these conditions.
Some thing that could be added would be trap tests
under simular conditions , for example.
I am glad to hear that the cams were installed
dot-2-dot.
I have some questions.
(1.) what springs did you have to run this high lift of both cams.
(2.) what kind of reliablity do you suppose the have. ( example 14K miles on hotcam setup no prob )
(3.) anybody have any MPG data on these setups
Thanks for the technical discussions.. I truely
enjoy them
Terry