99TranTrany

I was reading an article in HOT RODS engines mag on stroking the LS1 . They ( Pat Musi ) did a complete 383 stroker kit on a LS1 and only dynoed like 440 or so RWHP.I see all kinds of cars on here dyno better than that with H/C and bolt ons leaving the bottom end alone.Why waste the time and money stroking, or are there others advantages im not seeing?

<small>[ October 14, 2002, 01:07 AM: Message edited by: 99TranTrany ]</small>

TApimp

iTrader: (1)

yeah but i will bet they make alot more torque, also what kinda heads were on it?

taqwache

what other mods did they do besides stroking. stroking almost always will give you more power but if they did not do heads and cam then that is the problem. the most important part of the engine is between the valve and the head when the valve is open. this is why you see good headed cars makeing so much power on stock cubes. now if you stroke those good headed cars, then they will see even more power. so if money is low then i would spend it on heads and cam instead of stroking. if money was not a problem, then i would do both.

Fenris Ulf

The stroker has a much stronger bottom end, and the average power of the 383s is alot higher than the average power of all the heads cam cars out there, I gaurantee that <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />

VINCE

iTrader: (1)

The one you saw in the magazine had cats and I think stock manifolds running through a full exhaust..

Nine Ball

iTrader: (38)

Be careful not to compare peak HP values. Its all about "area under the HP curve" that matters. I guarantee a 450 rwhp 382ci will walk a 450 rwhp 346ci setup if both have the same drivetrain and weight.

Compare graphs between strokers and such, and you will see the differences that cubes add.

-Tony

383ss

iTrader: (14)

I agree, there's not a lot of stroker cars out there that have posted their dyno numbers/graphs either. Probably because there's about 10X fewer stroker than H/C cars.
I'll post my graph when I get my car dyno tuned up against a 440rwhp H/C car and you guys can see the difference. TONS more low end torque.

right now I'm at 456/440with no tuning and a cam that's not too radical and $800 heads that were ported 3 years ago. I want to see what it will do with $3k GTP heads. I'm guessing 475+ rwhp 460+rwtq

383ss

iTrader: (14)

another point is that some stroker cars have lower compression and less timing to do a power adder so their all engine dyno numbers aren't that impressive.

BurnOut

iTrader: (1)

Nine Ball hit the nail right on the head; it's not about peak numbers, it's about area under the curve. Strokers may not make much more power at peak (over a strong H/C car), but the long stroke makes for MASSIVE torque throughout the low-mid range.

Kinda like the saying about Toyota Supras:

Q: What do 400, 500, and 600 RWHP Supras all have in common??
A: 12 second time slips

First of all, yes, I realize that due to the IRS, etc..., Supras are difficult to get out of the hole. The point that I am trying to illustrate is this- big peak numbers mean nothing if the motor has such a narrow power band.

Ever look at a dyno graph for any of those cars?? It's pretty unimpressive until maybe 4k RPM or so, when the power goes damn near straight up. Seriously, a 650-700 RWHP Supra may not have any more power at 4500 RPM than a 430 RWHP LS1. The issue isn't just what does the car make at peak, it's how long does it take the car to get into the range where it makes its big power?? With a stroker, that time is a lot shorter than it is with a stock displacement LS1.

JimmyKash

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by BurnOut:
<strong>Toyota Supras:

Q: What do 400, 500, and 600 RWHP Supras all have in common??
A: 12 second time slips

First of all, yes, I realize that due to the IRS, etc..., Supras are difficult to get out of the hole. The point that I am trying to illustrate is this- big peak numbers mean nothing if the motor has such a narrow power band.

Ever look at a dyno graph for any of those cars?? It's pretty unimpressive until maybe 4k RPM or so, when the power goes damn near straight up. Seriously, a 650-700 RWHP Supra may not have any more power at 4500 RPM than a 430 RWHP LS1. The issue isn't just what does the car make at peak, it's how long does it take the car to get into the range where it makes its big power?? With a stroker, that time is a lot shorter than it is with a stock displacement LS1.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spoken like a true ignorant that doesn't know anything about supras....and if you actually DO and i am wrong here, you sure dont understand them <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />

Also....one stroker motor that i think absolutely rocked was BradWS6s old 382 that Westech built him. In a 3700lb full weight 30th t/a with a 6 point roll bar it went 11.00s. Do that with a head/cam car with the same weight <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="gr_tounge.gif" />

Fenris Ulf

For the dumbasses who think supras can't make lowend power too, here is a dyno of a 98 supra still running the same turbos toyota bolted on to his car from the factory:

<img src="http://www.boostaholic.com/supra/472rwhp.gif" alt=" - " />

As you can tell, he is making over 400 rwhp from 4200 rpms to 7000 rpms. Seems REAL peaky to me <img border="0" alt="[jester]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_jest.gif" />

30th TA 0219

let's not turn this into a Supra war, I have no idea why so many people ride th Supra jock and defend them here, but whatever <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
Anyway, Everyone knows one Supra that actually makes power, but 99% of them out there build them for peak #, so they have bragging rights. A few months back, some jackass had a 750rwhp Supra that ran 11.92. Big deal. Any idiot can put a huge Turbo on anything an make 700+hp, there's a always a trade-off. There are Supras like the one above, but they are even rarer than a purple 98 WS6 <img border="0" alt="[jester]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_jest.gif" />
Now back stroker LS1s vs Head/Cam LS1s....

BlakCamZ28

nobody is saying they can't make power....

what they are saying is that take an LS1 with the same power as that supra graph you just posted and it would wipe the floor with that supra.

Nine Ball

iTrader: (38)

My old 382 (with two year old Stage 2 LS1 heads, and a 232/232 cam) ran several 11.0X passes. 3605 lbs raceweight, warm weather (never ran it in cold weather), and with a 6-speed.

It dynoed 455 rwhp, 440 ft-lbs.

I started out with heads/cam in 1999, we originally did a shortblock swap, and no other changes. The following dyno compares before/after using:

Stage 2 LS1 heads (2.055 I, 1.60 E)
T1 (221/221) cam
LS1 intake
no changes in tuning
ONLY thing changed was shortblock from 346 -> 382

<img src="http://users.ev1.net/~ynot_dv8/382vs346.jpg" alt=" - " />

-Tony

<small>[ October 14, 2002, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: Nine Ball ]</small>

Fenris Ulf

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Nine Ball:
<strong>My old 382 (with two year old Stage 2 LS1 heads, and a 232/232 cam) ran several 11.0X passes. 3605 lbs raceweight, warm weather (never ran it in cold weather), and with a 6-speed.

It dynoed 455 rwhp, 440 ft-lbs.

-Tony</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So would that be a stroker, tony? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />

Crazyquik

The Pat Musi engine in that article had a moderate cam even by stock displacement standards, had ported LS1 heads, LS1 intake, stock size valves, and was built in early 1999 I believe (I have the issue at home). It was in a Vette (IRS) and it still put down 440 or so rwhp.

J.

Nine Ball

iTrader: (38)

Fenris, its not technically a "stroker", but to many of the old school guys, anything larger than a slight overbore is referred to as a "stroker". Try saying "all bore" to a SBC guy in a musclecar and they look at you confused lol.

Besides, displacement is displacement, these graphs illustrate the differences that cubic inches can make. I don't think anyone else has ever swapped just the bottom end on an LS1 like I have, and kept the same heads, same cam, same tuning before, leaving the shortblock as the ONLY variable to consider.

Here is how the 382ci dynoed after adding an LS6 intake. BIG difference! Still a 221/221 cam on this dyno graph, it idled like stock!

http://users.ev1.net/~ynot_dv8/382dyno.jpg

-Tony

Nine Ball

iTrader: (38)

LOL! here is another funny dyno curve. My LS1-intaked 382ci vs a stock Viper RT10, dynoed back to back on the same day.

See, even when you have 488ci (Viper) with shitty heads, a smaller motor can still whip ya!

http://users.ev1.net/~ynot_dv8/382vsViper.jpg

Oh yeah, I ran 11.19 @ 124 with the LS1 intake and 221 T1 cam.

-Tony

BurnOut

iTrader: (1)

Fenris, are you going to make me go down to one of the local import performance shops and make scans of some dyno graphs?? You know and I know that a power curve like that on those cars is the exception rather than the rule.

It's just like BlackCamZ28 said- I'm not saying that they can't make low end power, just that they usually don't. Besides, I am sitting here looking at a hard copy of a H/C dyno run, and guess what the torque value is at 3000 RPM?? @350 lb/ft, or @75 lb/ft over what that Supra graph shows.

I'll say it again- peak numbers are nice once the car gets into its power band, but getting out of the hole and into that power band is the issue. We all know how important the first 60 feet of a run are, and my point is that a b r o a d e r torque curve helps get the car to its "sweet spot". If all the cars out there could hook up a clutch dump at their torque peak, this would be a pointless debate. But that's not the case. Due to tire/suspension/driveline issues, most cars have to leave at an RPM well below where peak torque is made... and having as much area under the curve as possible helps the motor pull the car through that less-than-ideal part of the RPM range.

Nine Ball

iTrader: (38)

From what I've seen (100s of dynos, even on Supra dyno-days), the high hp Supras that do have a broad torque curve are usually using nitrous. We all know how nitrous kicks torque in the *** at lower rpm.

Single turbo supras without additional power adders are often VERY peaky. Good for bragging rights, not so good at backing up their HP on the track.

But, why are we discussing Supras?

-Tony