VINCE

iTrader: (1)

Just to let you know I have every right to post the flow #'s on my heads.. I am however disappointed that CNC did not make me aware of these #'s b4 charging me $935 for supposedly inspecting and fixing these heads.. I am also disappointed that Mikey who I thought was a friend told me that my Flow Technic heads flowed as well as MTI, ARE, etc.. These are the results:

First, I flow a stock head to give you an example to compare my flow bench to others.

Stock 853 casting, stock valve.
.100 70
.200 147
.300 197
.400 226
.450 230
.500 218 = port stall

Your Flow Tech 2.08 int valve heads.

.100 61
.200 127
.300 184
.400 237
.450 254
.500 270
.550 283
.600 293
.650 301

The above is very disappointing..

Now, an example of what our average S2 flows.

.100 75
.200 151
.300 211
.400 262
.450 285
.500 298
.550 308

These flow values listed below are the average that they are off vs our S2's vs the Flow Tech's is just a guide to go by and will explain alot to you now.

.100 -14
.200 -24
.300 -27
.400 -25
.450 -31
.500 -28
.550 -25

There 174 cfm in the hole vs our S2's with smaller valves meaning, you probably would have made more power with stock heads and your old set-up.

Not only was I mislead by the Flow Technics, but the deception continued.. I am very unhappy.. I asked several times for these #'s and all I got was comparable #'s.. I wanted to put my stock heads back on, but was told that these heads would do better..

LS1derfull

Vince your post is a little confusing, but it looks to me like your new heads have the wrong style valves in them. Flow test them with stock 2000+ valves and see if that fixes your low flow condition.If it does than maybe try back cutting those 2.08" valves to simiulate shape of stock valve. Worth a try IMO.

<small>[ October 15, 2002, 04:58 PM: Message edited by: LS1derfull ]</small>

VINCE

iTrader: (1)

Sorry for the confusion.. I sold my 5.3L heads to a vendor.. They flowed them for me.. The above are the flow #'s compared to stock casting and real S2 heads.. My issue is these heads were flowed b4 and I was told by 2 different places they flowed 304cfm at .600 lift.. My midrange #'s suck.. I even question now if Pete at CNC ever flowed my heads.. The stock heads are going back on.. We will see what the car does with them..

VINCE

iTrader: (1)

The low lifts really sucks.. No wonder my tq and hp was down so low..

VINCE

iTrader: (1)

ttt

The Alchemist

iTrader: (19)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by VINCE:
<strong>Just to let you know I have every right to post the flow #'s on my heads..

First, I flow a stock head to give you an example to compare my flow bench to others.

Stock 853 casting, stock valve.
.100 70
.200 147
.300 197
.400 226
.450 230
.500 218 = port stall

Your Flow Tech 2.08 int valve heads.

.100 61
.200 127
.300 184
.400 237
.450 254
.500 270
.550 283
.600 293
.650 301

The above is very disappointing..

Now, an example of what our average S2 flows.

.100 75
.200 151
.300 211
.400 262
.450 285
.500 298
.550 308

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wow... sorry to hear your troubles. I personally saw my new heads being ported and flow tested (four seperate times per intake runner to be exact) and now realize how big of a deal that is.

Here is what my new setup is going to run:

.100 77 cfm
.200 153 cfm
.300 217 cfm
.400 260 cfm
.450 277 cfm
.500 287 cfm
.550 295 cfm
.570 297 cfm (max cam lift)

This is with a relatively small 2.02 valve. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />

Once again, sorry about your misfortunes but glad you sorted through your troubles and were able to find a resolution.

Richard@WCCH

iTrader: (3)

Damn Vince! So much for paying someone to look after YOUR best interests! Good to know they aren't criminal defense attorneys!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="gr_eek2.gif" />
Did you get any flow numbers on exhaust ports? Also, I'm not familiar with an 853 casting. Is that a 5.3l truck head? I thought the only two casting numbers for 5.3 heads were 862 & 706.
Looking at the flow curve from your FT heads, the low lift flow is very, very weak indicating the seat and valve profile are not up to snuff. You can grind the ports all you want to, but at some point the air has to get around the valve and seat and that means doing your homework. And as other big name vendors have found out, it makes a difference in rwhp, rwtq and happy customers.
Nice to see you found your problem Vince. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
Good luck with your stock heads.
Richard <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" />

VINCE

iTrader: (1)

Thanks guys... Hopefully next week I will have some #'s to share on the board.. Keep the comments coming.. I do not want anyone to forget Flow Technics name..

383LQ4SS

iTrader: (33)

Not only are the flow #s weak, but combined with the valve size Im sure velocity was hurting as well.

VINCE

iTrader: (1)

I think my cats could have did a better port job..

Mike Norris

iTrader: (10)

Hey Vince,

Those numbers are very close to what CNC had found. The comparable numbers are close to some ARE and MTI heads we had repaired and flowed for comparison. These comparison sheets were on one year old or less head designs. The ARE's had 2.08" and the MTI had 2.055" intakes. I will double check the numbers when I get into the shop this morning. Though you have the "right" to post these numbers, I prefer not to show other vendors numbers as a courtesy, good or bad, and let the track and dyno results do the talking.

As far as the $935 goes, make sure everyone knows that the intake valves were all replaced due to piston interference as well as a couple guides and the chamber need to be welded up and refinished and also includes the flow testing of a couple of intake and exhaust ports and shipping. You also asked us to see if there was anything else needed, and we would not do any port revision as they were pretty large to start out with. Though the flow numbers are off to some, they were not bad "number wise" to ARE and MTI, but flow numbers do not mean squat, just an indicator and anyone can make them pretty much whatever they want. I also did not recommend going to a set of our NM/CNC heads since you were talking of going forced induction in the near future and we were to try to maximize what you had till then for the least money. Though you say you would have spent the money, you beat me down on price from the start and indicated several times you needed money to buy a house because your girlfriend was on your *** about it as you put it. Then there were the two cams YOU chose on top of that.

No two flow benches will show the same numbers, but can be close. The 300+ numbers may look impressive, but throw an intake on there and you can see anywhere from 25-45cfm drop.

The bottom line is, Vince has a **** combo supposedly, but is making about 410RWHP and 390RWT. Car runs hard for sure. Not the dyno queen he wants, but he did this his own way and let $$ be his guide to a point. Car should still run 11.5 at 120+ if driven properly and with good clutch, headers, tires and gears similar to Richies car who had about the same numbers.

Do not start bashing me because you started with off brand parts and installers that lead to problems. I have a hard time figuring some folks out when they constantly changes their minds due to internet info, good or bad. I built you a good solid shortblock for a good price, used your cam choice, made sure the tuning was as on as it could be and took care of the small problems as the raised their head. Friend or not you do not handle things well for the most part. I still think of you as a good customer, but whatever comes out of it is up to you. I am beginning to see why you have a lawyer on retainer all of the time.

Later,

Mike

VINCE

iTrader: (1)

LOL!!! No bashing of your shop Mikey.. Just as you have to pay the bills I have to try my best to get the lowest prices as possible.. Do you really think my girlfriend controls my wallet.. C'mon. It's called giving you the guilt trip.. Hoping you would cut me some slack.. I never said you did not do good work.. I will never say that.. You did however keep information from me. I remember saying to you I wanted to put my stock heads back on when I decided to drop the car off with you.. You suggested that we let CNC look at the heads first to see if they could be salvaged. Months later you tell me that the flow #'s on the 5.3's flow comparibly to MTI's, ARE, and other vendors.. Secondary to having much respect for those 2 vendors. You lead me to believe that I had a good set of heads.. You never said anything about how many years you went back to compare them too.. Plus, you told me that CNC had repaired the heads and then flowed them after. You yourself mentioned after CNC was done that the low and midlift sucked.. By that time I was already in the hole for a bill. If you would have once said Vince, lets try some of my heads.. Your heads suck.. I would have said sure.. My point here Mikey is that if you would have told me all the damage to the heads b4 CNC had fixed them.. I would have pushed the issue to put the stock back on or went with another set.. However, I am repeating myself, but CNC repaired the 5.3's and that's when I found out about all the damage and the cost to repair. This post is really to bash Flow Technics. Not Mike Norris and company.. I really appreciate all your help, but your customer needs all the information to make an informed decision. The only reason I was trying different cams was because I thought my heads flowed as well as MTI's and others and I needed to find the right cam. I rec'd that impression from Mike Norris. Yes, I have issues, but who does not.. We have talked on many occassions.. I can recommend a good shrink for you as well... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />

Mike Norris

iTrader: (10)

Vince,

The bashing part comes from this comment.

"I am also disappointed that Mikey who I thought was a friend told me that my Flow Technic heads flowed as well as MTI, ARE, etc.. These are the results:"

Bashing may a bit strong, but my opinion. I also stated "I still think of you as a good customer, but whatever comes out of it is up to you." and should no hard feelings, just showing this side of the story. You did mention the girlfriend of it as I stated for sure. I llok out for folks in the long run and this is why I did not push a set of our heads on you. Yoy were already a bunch of bad money in and I saw no sense in having you soend more and then have to redo it again to fo forced induction like you said. Next time I will take the money. I try to work with my conscience the best I can.

As far as the shrink thing goes, not sure what you mean, but I am short enough as it is, especially compared to you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />

Anyways, heres the flow numbers I mentioned that these are less than a year old repaired ARE 2.08's and tested 11/01 or 12/01. There have been revision since then, but most guys were making 400-420RWHP and running in the 11.5 area with this design. First are your numbers:

Your Flow Tech 2.08 int valve heads.

.100 61
.200 127
.300 184
.400 237
.450 254
.500 270
.550 283
.600 293

Our ARE 2.08 tested numbers:

.100 53
.200 122
.300 181
.400 226
.450 250
.500 265
.550 278
.600 292

I told you your heads were within 5 cfm and it looks about right. The .400 lift shows 11 cfm more in your favor, but we did not see that difference there. Like I said, your heads flow similar to the ARE heads we had tested and hopefully this shows that.

Later,

Mike

Nine Ball

iTrader: (38)

Vince, I applaud your efforts for trying out new stuff and different combos all the time. You probably change your mind than most people on this site when it comes to engine parts. But, I gotta ask, if you wanted a set of heads that "flowed like MTI", why didn't you just save yourself the heartache and disappointment and buy what you wanted in the first place?

This is one of the main reasons I always tell people NOT to skimp or cut corners when it comes to internal engine mods. 9 out of 10 times, they come out disappointed and end up spending twice as much in order to change stuff later.

BTW, Mike is correct about your car's track potential. I ran 11.61 @ 120 with only 390 rwhp about 3 years ago, pushing 3700 lbs. 410 rwhp isn't that bad, I'd be more concerned if you were under 400 rwhp.

-Tony

Terry Burger

iTrader: (4)

What he meant to say was "Flowed like MMS". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" /> Then he could use the $1000 he saved to upgrade to a solid roller. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />

JS

iTrader: (4)

Yo Brien,U decided to step up to S2 heads,Huh?
Going w/the TR cam or maybe just keep your 218?

Car should dip right into the 11's at full weight w/thats setup.The clutch will be your only enemy at that point but I'm sure you already know that.

Good luck
JS

Jantzer98SS

iTrader: (54)

The flow numbers themselves aren't that bad. It just depends on the runner size/valve size. Don't concentrate on the numbers themselves per se, but considering the size of the valves & runners, they aren't ported the greatest for your application. The manifold is a restriction and you're better off running a smaller runner, smaller valve, lower flowing head than a big runner, 2.08 valve, flow bench queen head.

To me it doesn't matter much if your heads flow over 280cfm, it's all about what they do with the manifold bolted on. Port for low-mid lift and run a good number at the track.

Makes me wonder why more people don't run stage I heads. Everybody is so caught up in flow numbers & such yet it's the high velocity heads that are working better. The stage I heads with stock intake valves on my car are a perfect example. Besides you get ATLEAST 90% of the gain for sometimes 1/2 the price.

Vince,

The numbers you posted above are not TYPICAL stage II numbers. And remember alot of the numbers you read on the net are the best flowing port for obvious reasons.

VINCE

iTrader: (1)

Thanks again guys for your comments.. Tony I did take shortcuts, but Mikey mentioned the heads flowed similar to MTI and ARE. I was taking that as a compliment at the time.. This car will not run mid 11's with those 5.3 heads w/out a 12 bolt and ET Streets or stickier.. First of all.. When did I say I wanted to run mid 11's? 2nd, I dyno'd 390rwhp minus cutout b4 the heads.. Added the heads and dyno'd 402rwhp.. Thats a 12rwhp gain.. I should have picked that up just from the compression increase.. Opened up the cutout and picked up 15rwhp.. Now lets go back. If I had a cutout in the first place.. I would have already been over 400rwhp.. I am only going to say this one more time Mikey! I am not bashing YOU! Norris Motorsports does excellent work, but YOU kind of left me in the dark. This is the first time I have seen flow #'s on the 5.3's.. I have asked you many times for them. Telling someone that they compare to this or that means nothing.. I wanted to be an informed CUSTOMER.. I am going forced induction later.. I will spend my money how I see fit.. If I waste it then so be it.. I am the one working for it.. No hand outs here.. The FT heads are off the car.. They sucked.. I took someone for a ride in my car and they told me that I need a gear.. I told them that I have 4.10's and they said they feel like 3.73's.. My tall *** feelings were hurt.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Sad]" src="gr_sad.gif" /> Thats why the FT's had to go..

Mike Norris

iTrader: (10)

Vince,

I brought up the 11.5's, not Tony. I mentioned that you had plenty of power to run mid 11's consistently with the right setup and Tony just agreed. I know you don't care about ET's for the most part, but you have mentioned it to me in the past.

I will take the blame for not giving you a specific flow number, but now since they are very close to the other heads I mentioned, does this change anything? At the time the MTI and ARE were considered the **** by most and to have and flow comparisons this close with yours slightly ahead they should be and are compatable with those at that time. You most likely would have been happy with the numbers at that time if I showed you side by side.

The hardest thing about letting you spend or waste your money is that it effects me in the long run due to so much indecision at times. This costs me time and money if let go unchecked. If I am bad for not taking your money and trying to look out for your interests, then I apologize. I know you are not trying to bash me, but CNC and myself were brought up first by you and that you were disappointed with Flow Technics secondary. I told you they flow similar to MTI and ARE and they do. Sorry if it looks like I am pissed. I am not and still value you as a customer, just defending the name as needed as I see fit when these things come up.

Hopefully all will turn out well for everyone in the end.

Later <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" />

Mike

VINCE

iTrader: (1)

Thanks again Mike.. I would like to let everyone know that this is not a bash on Mike Norris.. This is to WARN people about taking chances with NO NAMES.. I do not care what they tell you about their experience.. They do not have what it takes to make it in the LS1 arena.. Oh yeah, Tony/NineBall you ran mid 11's with 390rwhp and 3.73's at 3700lbs?