Country Boy

iTrader: (24)

I think you totally blasted by the whole point of this thread. Of coarse big cams will usually make more power, but its a give and take situation. The bigger you go, the more you lose drivability and "usable" power unless youre wide open 100% of the time. People who drive the cars on the street spend 90% of their time at < 4000 RPMs. Most just think they have the next biggest cam on the block for that magic number. You also cant always tune out cam surge. Sometimes its just the nature of the beast.

Jpr5690

iTrader: (13)

i read the thread,

and my point was not to argue the point that you presented but it seemed like alot of folks in this thread have inferred that small cams are makeing just as much power (some even say more power) than big cams (or at least running the same ets)

my point was mearly to let some of the readers of this thread know that, although there is a give\ take relationship with a larger cam there is still gonna be more power and better ets with a big cam

and so long as you properly tune and install it the driveablity should not be all that bad,,,

hammertime

iTrader: (1)

+1 on that

The point of this thread is not about a peak number, or best ET. It's about hom much cam can you live with and still keep some economy and civility. We all know the MS3, MS4, G5X3 and X4 make great power up top. Posting that is like posting to tell me that Pam Anderson has big ****.

Cams are about compromise, and you can't win all the way around. Using a car with a 10pt cage as an example of a street car is absurd. What kind of fuel mileage do you get with a 3800lb car and a 4000 stall? Since you don't have any numbers to compare, it would be hard to find an example, but I'm betting there are some A4 cars out there with excellent heads, milder 224 or so cams and a 32-3600 stall that would run very similar to your setup while not giving up mid 20's fuel economy.

badmfkr

iTrader: (4)

DUR @ .004" 278*/ 286*
DUR @ .050" 216*/ 224*
LIFT .551/.551
OVERLAP 53*
LSA 115*
"THE BOSS FOR AUTOMATICS" "THE BOSS 115"
STREET / STRIP CAM / AUTOCROSS
POWER RANGE 2000 TO 6200
TUNING & STALL CONVERTER DESIRED
PERFECT FOR SUPERCHARGERS
POWERFUL CHOPPY IDLE

I have a mild cam and love it. very streetable power under the curve is where it's at for me. idel set at 590RPM.on a torqued car I don't like to hold the brake real hard at stop lights w/ a big cam at high idel it takes lots of foot preasure to just hold it at the light.

power comes on right from idel and pulls all the way to each shift point. my finale engine mod will be heads I'm matching each mod thats the key the sum of all the parts I'm expecting the heads to make a considerable increase.

the bigger cams make big HP #s but real low torque #s. my cam actually makes more torque than HP torque is what makes you go fast.

mild cams are easy on valve springs and are easy to tune my cam really didn't even need a tune I had it tuned mainly to pass emmisions (exhaust) thanks Vannerbuilt.

mild cams will not kill you're fuel milage like a monster cam will.

I have been smoking larger camed cars that just either missmatched mods or there way over powering there tires.

my 2 cents.

Thanks Joe & Roger at Vinncie for the cam

Jpr5690

iTrader: (13)

Can't argue that and I never tried too..

If you go back and read my point, which I clearly listed only a few posts ago, I said:

I was just trying to say that although small cams provide a great mix of attributes, big cams still are better for all out drag situations. Or anyone who wants the most out of their setups.

The only reason I even made this point is because certain posts in this thread are somewhat missleading and would make the innexperienced reader believe that somehow a smaller cam makes more power than a big cam..

This is the point I've been arguing... Yea MS3 in a Dd is probably not the best idea...It sucks for MPG...But at the same time if you want a fast *** strip car, the MS3 is a better choice than any 224 cam...


Like I also said, 99% of the problems with big cams are from missmatched components...Or bad install...


Anyways, I'm done responding to the same thing by poeple who are missreading this thread and blindly attacking my stance on the subject...

If you want to argue with me more, you'll have to come out and say that a properly setup and tuned (220) cam, will make more power than a properly setup and tuned (240) cam.
This is my only argument...

-JOHN

PREDATOR-Z

Big cams require more supporting mods to reach potential.
If big cam is optimized, of course it will make more power , that is a no brainer.

Point being made here is a lot of poeple think that by shoving the biggest in a motor, they will be the fastest. That is totally false unless all supporting mods are there too.

Combo is the magic word.

In cam only + bolt ons, the biggest isn't always the best. The right cam is the one that achieves the purpose for which the cam is designed.

dhdenney

iTrader: (53)

Exactly.

That being said, I think the above statement shows you all are arguing about two different things. The whole point of the thread is geared towards to the DD type of street car and Jpr5690 is talking about drag cars. It's an apples to oranges argument here.

hammertime

iTrader: (1)

I think that sums it up. Perhaps I missed that Jpr5690's primary point was in a drag car. Since the thread is geared towards street enthusiasts, that was my argument.

The MS3 is a great cam is you are willing to accept the trade off. Once you have a big stall, gears, the rest of the supporting mods, I'm certain it is fantastic at it's sole purpose. The real problem is that too many people see the marketing hype and don't realize what is at stake. The real problem is too many people are not honest with themselves, or their chosen vendor(s) about the intended use of the car. Optimizing Joes car for work at the track is fine, unless its going to make it there 3-5 times a year, and he has to sit in city traffic M-F, 9-5 in the same car.

nah...I'm not here to argue. But I will say that a properly setup and tuned 220 cam will make more power under the curve than a properly setup and tuned 240 cam, which doen't apply where 4000 stall converters, 4.10 gears and 12 mpg are all acceptable.

badmfkr

iTrader: (4)

you should consider a reverse spilt cam for a turbo.

topend

there is no such thing as a too big of a cam just not enough motor.

WhiplashDVD

iTrader: (1)

Cam size is in the eye of the beholder. Too bad Tony Mamo wouldnt post in this thread. He has made impressive numbers with 224's and impressive times as well. Do a search for Mamo and there will be many posts on this as well. This post was not to plug AFR's components any better than anyone elses.

Tony Mamo @ AFR

iTrader: (13)

Timing is everything right?....LOL

You dont need a big cam to make big power....most of my combinations have proved that to be true but to accomplish this presents a larger and typically more costly challenge. The key is a highly optimized more efficient package which usually requires better planning, more money, and more time invested.

But....everything is a compromise. While you may save some money initially, the larger cammed less optimized combination won't have the same area under the curve and will not be as street friendly and easy to drive around town. Fuel economy will also offer suffer. The optimized smaller cam package will cost you more upfront, but pay dividends over the cost of ownership with its better drivability, MPG, and more user friendly overall package. Not to mention will simply accelerate harder from any RPM probably under 5000 or so.

Then there is the issue of what if you installed a larger cam (in place of the smaller cam) in that expensive very optimized package?....Hell....you would make even more power but once again start to compromise the efficient package you set out to build in the first place. My initial build-up stock short that made 475-480 in my C5 with a 224 cam would have easily cleared 500 RWHP with a cam some 10 degrees larger but I wouldn't of had the torque and power curve of what could have been something right from the "general" himself. It would have been more peaky requiring a little more RPM to get things going with a noticable softening of the part throttle and low speed driving part of the power delivery.

While I have only glanced over the thread from time to time, I make the assumption some of this (or all of this) has already been discussed in some form or another but felt my take on the great cam dilemna was worth quickly posting.

Ultimately once again it comes down to an individual's goals and desires. The best thing you can do for yourself is to really think about how you mainly plan to use the car. Nothing worse than driving an over-cammed car on the street IMO....its a miserable experience 95% of the time and a good experience the 5% you might be a WOT. On the other hand a slightly conservative cammed car will always feel torquey, fast, and snappy, and if shifted at its optimum points would be a handful for the overcammed car mentioned previously. The obvious perks to drivability and low speed TQ going to the smaller cammed vehicle.

Think long and hard about your cam choice....its one of the most important decisions you will make that ultimately shapes the personality of the engine you are building...

Tony M.

Wnts2Go10O

iTrader: (12)

speaking of snappy and responsive.. weve got a torquer 2 on a 113 in my dads SS with stock gears and it doesnt wanna go slow... at all. it has minimal if any surge at 1500 rpm. granted its not a "big cam" cam but i did have to mess with teh tune to get it right. it drives great, not stock, but still tame enough to drive it a lot. we had power goals but more overall goals with the car and im still confident that the combo itself is on the right track.
in my own car i have an L76 clone motor with a stock ls7 (210/230 120) cam and im confident that i will get 11s with that beyond mild setup and net me 20+ mpg. it might as well be patricks cheatr setup. i cant wait to see what it does.

02 Pewter SS

Great thread, alot of good information here. Im on the verge of getting a cam, and it looks like its gonna be the MTI X-1, G-1 or the TR224.

Asmodeus

I'm VERY happy with my 228/232 .644/.598 112+2. My car is nearly 100% street driven. I don't think I would have wanted to go any bigger. Very minor surge under 1400 rpm's with the foot off the gas. Pulls hard. Standing on it in 2nd will light the tires from 3k to 6k rpms. Still hasn't had it's final tweaking on the dyno. The car did get a bit louder though First start in the morning it's real choppy, but when it warms up it drives very very well. Idle is at about 850 in an M6.

03EBZ06

I guess I'm the winner. I put a 216/222-116-585 lift cam in my Z06 as a test. Gained around 20hp with the stock air cleaner and everything else stock. It was VERY noticed especially in the high rpm. Recently removed it to install a turbo. Turbo project failing so looks like TFS HEADS + 218/224-112-581 +0 lift is the next test package.

These LSX engines already pull high RPM w/the small cams we have. I theorize that more area under the cam curve (lobe aggression) and playing w/scavening/long tubes is the answer. Could it be the amount of cam needed is proportional to the amount of additional airflow the heads flow at given lifts. Duh.

1320FEVER

iTrader: (9)

I had a 227/230 on a 112 LSA in my old 5.7L setup. I really liked the way that cam felt on the street. It pulled hard everywhere and had a nice idle to it. I felt that if I went any bigger, I would be making some serious compromises. Sure, it would make better, more impressive peak hp if I went with the bigger cam, but it would feel like a dog until you got up over 4krpms.

Since I went with the 408 though I chose a larger cam, otherwise, I would have stuck with the smaller one..

eamador11

I agree, i can beat a 450hp G5-x3 cammed car all day on street and tell them you just got pulled by a 416rwhp car.

raymond mckinney

iTrader: (4)

I started out with a Hot Cam in my car and i have a Trex now i lost some low end tq but the converter made up for that and i still drive my car everyday, but the it wasn't a switch for only some power but i didn't want to spend money on another cam when i went with a 408 i thought i may save myself some money in the further.

WS6TransAm01

iTrader: (13)

Years ago I ran a 11.3 @ 122 with a set of ported 853's and a 218/222 568 cam.

Small cams are still a good choice in my opinion, but I think a lot of people look at it as; if I am going t swap a cam, I might as well get the most out of it, and that would require a bigger cam.

Just my two cents.