Engine Damage - How Bad Is It? Need Input
10-21-2002, 05:45 AM
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Engine Damage - How Bad Is It? Need Input Took the car (2001 SS M6) down to the track Friday night for some runs in the colder air and something bad happened (could be an understatement).
PREFACE:
Ever since doing the Hooker LT install about 1 1/2 months ago, I have been having tuning issues (ran REALLY LEAN = 17 to 1) before widebanding it and adjusting back to 13 to 1 with the MAFT. In addition, I had been showing a flashing SES light and autotap stated it was a misfire in cylinder #5. While previously running consistant 12.7's (best of 12.65) at around 112.5 mph, several runs prior to and including Friday night could yield only a best of 12.71 at 110.5 (loss 2 mph) since the LT install- not expected results.
ACTUAL:
On my third pass down the track, everything seemed fine. When I pulled off the track onto the return road I noticed a decent amount of smoke/exhaust coming from behind the car and from underneath (I run w/ open cutout). I immediately returned to the car to the parking lot and shut her off. A quick visual showed nothing obvious(no oil, coolant, etc). I started the car again and it still continued to dump exhaust/smoke out the back and from the cutout. I did find an exhaust leak where the Y-pipe connects to the manifold (as a side note). The motor ran fine (no ticking, not rough, etc) but you could smell that the car was running extremely rich (which makes no sense cause of tuning it to 13 to 1 A/F).
We left the track and I was continuing to show the SES light - it would occasionally flash then return to solid. Driving normally (light throttle) did not produce the vast amount of smoke/exhasut but when I stepped on the gas hard (more or less to see if the problem was still occuring), I would leave a smoke trial that would make Spy Hunter jealous as my friend so considerately stated. He said the smoke/exhaust had a blueish hue to it and we could both smell the burning oil smell in the air.
FOLLOW UP:
My buddy came over the next morning to hook up the autotap to see what codes were being shown. While initially I knew I was throwing the SES light for a cylinder #5 misfire, Autotap showed a new list of nearly 80-90 new alerts ranging from Theft Deterent System faulure, crank position sensor, max temp overide, etc to something about the Clutch Pedal blah-blah. Throttle position sensor code was thrown as well as Too Rich and Too Lean codes. I seriously threw over 80 codes!! When we reset it to ensure accuracy, I again threw the same codes. To make matters worse, it was still dumping exhaust/smoke out the car.
We knew I already had a damaged SLP 85mm MAF (sensor was previoulsy damaged and repaired but we knew it was a matter of time before it went for good), so we decided to swap it back out with the stock unit to see if that would solve some of the wacky codes being thrown. So in pulling the lid and MAF, we were greeted with about 2-3 capfulls of oil in both the MAF unit as well as in the bellows hose between the MAF and lid. Even the lid had some oil on its roof. To dig a little further, we pulled the throttle body only to find what looked to be a mixture of oil and coolant (looked like chocolate milk). At this point, we put everything back together and decided to call it a day cause we didnt have the tools to really get into it and decided to wait until we had both the tools and time to dig deeper.
My big panic is that I dont know what this means. I am not the most savy when it comes to diagnosis. I mean I have some ideas (valve seal, head gasket, etc) but I am looking to hear something with a little more certainty behind it.
Can anyone help me out with a best guesstimate as to what happend and what the likley means of repair might be.
If there is anymore info you need that might help, feel free to email me (WSigafoose@aol.com) and I will get back to you ASAP as I am online most the day.
Thanks in advance for any input.
PREFACE:
Ever since doing the Hooker LT install about 1 1/2 months ago, I have been having tuning issues (ran REALLY LEAN = 17 to 1) before widebanding it and adjusting back to 13 to 1 with the MAFT. In addition, I had been showing a flashing SES light and autotap stated it was a misfire in cylinder #5. While previously running consistant 12.7's (best of 12.65) at around 112.5 mph, several runs prior to and including Friday night could yield only a best of 12.71 at 110.5 (loss 2 mph) since the LT install- not expected results.
ACTUAL:
On my third pass down the track, everything seemed fine. When I pulled off the track onto the return road I noticed a decent amount of smoke/exhaust coming from behind the car and from underneath (I run w/ open cutout). I immediately returned to the car to the parking lot and shut her off. A quick visual showed nothing obvious(no oil, coolant, etc). I started the car again and it still continued to dump exhaust/smoke out the back and from the cutout. I did find an exhaust leak where the Y-pipe connects to the manifold (as a side note). The motor ran fine (no ticking, not rough, etc) but you could smell that the car was running extremely rich (which makes no sense cause of tuning it to 13 to 1 A/F).
We left the track and I was continuing to show the SES light - it would occasionally flash then return to solid. Driving normally (light throttle) did not produce the vast amount of smoke/exhasut but when I stepped on the gas hard (more or less to see if the problem was still occuring), I would leave a smoke trial that would make Spy Hunter jealous as my friend so considerately stated. He said the smoke/exhaust had a blueish hue to it and we could both smell the burning oil smell in the air.
FOLLOW UP:
My buddy came over the next morning to hook up the autotap to see what codes were being shown. While initially I knew I was throwing the SES light for a cylinder #5 misfire, Autotap showed a new list of nearly 80-90 new alerts ranging from Theft Deterent System faulure, crank position sensor, max temp overide, etc to something about the Clutch Pedal blah-blah. Throttle position sensor code was thrown as well as Too Rich and Too Lean codes. I seriously threw over 80 codes!! When we reset it to ensure accuracy, I again threw the same codes. To make matters worse, it was still dumping exhaust/smoke out the car.
We knew I already had a damaged SLP 85mm MAF (sensor was previoulsy damaged and repaired but we knew it was a matter of time before it went for good), so we decided to swap it back out with the stock unit to see if that would solve some of the wacky codes being thrown. So in pulling the lid and MAF, we were greeted with about 2-3 capfulls of oil in both the MAF unit as well as in the bellows hose between the MAF and lid. Even the lid had some oil on its roof. To dig a little further, we pulled the throttle body only to find what looked to be a mixture of oil and coolant (looked like chocolate milk). At this point, we put everything back together and decided to call it a day cause we didnt have the tools to really get into it and decided to wait until we had both the tools and time to dig deeper.
My big panic is that I dont know what this means. I am not the most savy when it comes to diagnosis. I mean I have some ideas (valve seal, head gasket, etc) but I am looking to hear something with a little more certainty behind it.
Can anyone help me out with a best guesstimate as to what happend and what the likley means of repair might be.
If there is anymore info you need that might help, feel free to email me (WSigafoose@aol.com) and I will get back to you ASAP as I am online most the day.
Thanks in advance for any input.
10-21-2002, 11:05 AM
#3
Re: Engine Damage - How Bad Is It? Need Input Could be a number of things really. First guess is gonna be head gasket. Other than that, cracked block or head. Sounds like you maybe had excessive crankcase pressure. Can't think of another reason to have so much oil in the intake, and especially in the intake tract? Never seen that before.
Could have nuked some rings. Most likely fouled the sensors in the MAF, resulting in all those crazy codes. I'd prolly be looking real hard at the valve springs, valves, and/or rings on #5, and then go from there.
Could have nuked some rings. Most likely fouled the sensors in the MAF, resulting in all those crazy codes. I'd prolly be looking real hard at the valve springs, valves, and/or rings on #5, and then go from there.
10-22-2002, 01:57 AM
#4
Re: Engine Damage - How Bad Is It? Need Input everything that was just said and if it has been running lean you could've burnt a valve or a piston. Cracking is prone in lean running aluminum engines. I honestly can say you have an award in my book for throwing the most codes at once I've EVER seen!
10-22-2002, 09:06 AM
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Re: Engine Damage - How Bad Is It? Need Input LOL - thanks for the award. Fortunately I am in a better than expected mood with all this, at least for now. LOL.
And sorry about the long post - I tried to include anything possibly relevent. Sometimes its the littlest of things that catch someone's eyes.
Mikey - I dont have the codes here at work. My buddy has them saved on his laptop (how he runs ATAP) and he will email me a copy when he gets home upon which I will forward them to you.
The codes being thrown are crazy - almost leads me to believe that some of my problem is a bad PCM but who knows?
Leak down/compression test will be done this weekend at the latest - hopefully that will tell me something.
And sorry about the long post - I tried to include anything possibly relevent. Sometimes its the littlest of things that catch someone's eyes.
Mikey - I dont have the codes here at work. My buddy has them saved on his laptop (how he runs ATAP) and he will email me a copy when he gets home upon which I will forward them to you.
The codes being thrown are crazy - almost leads me to believe that some of my problem is a bad PCM but who knows?
Leak down/compression test will be done this weekend at the latest - hopefully that will tell me something.
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10-22-2002, 03:14 PM
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Re: Engine Damage - How Bad Is It? Need Input Your "Flashing SES" issue noted in your preface reminds me of the LS1.com days where this condition was caused by a broken pushrod. Sounds like that's what you had, and maybe a piece fell or was pushed somewhere it shouldn't be, and may have caused additional damage resulting in your current condition.
But you say it's not running rough...? Weird.
But you say it's not running rough...? Weird.
10-22-2002, 06:28 PM
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Re: Engine Damage - How Bad Is It? Need Input hmmmmm i remember the flashing SES light then I spun a bearing on cylinder 5 then shot my rod through the wall. Dam cylinder 5 in these LS1's. Keep an eye out.
Marco
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10-22-2002, 06:43 PM
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Re: Engine Damage - How Bad Is It? Need Input </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Nightclaw:
<strong>Your "Flashing SES" issue noted in your preface reminds me of the LS1.com days where this condition was caused by a broken pushrod. Sounds like that's what you had, and maybe a piece fell or was pushed somewhere it shouldn't be, and may have caused additional damage resulting in your current condition.
But you say it's not running rough...? Weird.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I dont think it is a pushrod (which was what went through my mind when I first saw the smoke) cause there is no rough idle or acceleration. There was also no "tapping" sound evident.
I acquired a copy of the ATAP report which shows ALL the codes that were thrown. I really ought to count them up sometime - lol.
If anyone wants to see them and take a guess let me know and I will send you them via email.
Thanks again. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" />
<strong>Your "Flashing SES" issue noted in your preface reminds me of the LS1.com days where this condition was caused by a broken pushrod. Sounds like that's what you had, and maybe a piece fell or was pushed somewhere it shouldn't be, and may have caused additional damage resulting in your current condition.
But you say it's not running rough...? Weird.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I dont think it is a pushrod (which was what went through my mind when I first saw the smoke) cause there is no rough idle or acceleration. There was also no "tapping" sound evident.
I acquired a copy of the ATAP report which shows ALL the codes that were thrown. I really ought to count them up sometime - lol.
If anyone wants to see them and take a guess let me know and I will send you them via email.
Thanks again. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" />
10-22-2002, 08:44 PM
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Re: Engine Damage - How Bad Is It? Need Input I hate to bring more bad news;but, I know of at least 5 cars with these smoking problems right now. All of them started after installing headers and ORP. We have to been trying to figure out what is causing this problem. I am sure it is something with the rings but what is causing it. On one of the 5 cars having the problems, The guy put in a new set of rings and corrected the problem. I might add that none of these cars had an oil consumption problem until the header install. They now drink oil. I know this does not seem logical, but it is not a coincidence when it happens to 5 different cars. I to would like to see an answer to this.
10-23-2002, 05:46 AM
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Re: Engine Damage - How Bad Is It? Need Input Flashing SES means catalyst damaging condition FWIW. This is worst type of DTC. If header install is causing ring seal problem than some type of vacuum evacuation system may control ring seal properly(and make power too)tuning after header install needs careful attention to prevent burning up ring seal.
10-23-2002, 05:59 AM
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Re: Engine Damage - How Bad Is It? Need Input With the extremely lean condition I was running for a couple of weeks (17 to 1) - I could see burning something up.
I just dont see how I wouldnt have a noticeable power loss if something like that would happen. Power wise it feels just fine. Engine noise/vibration is completely normal.
I just cant see how it would be something like a cracked block or busted piston or valve. Maybe I saying this cause I am trying to ease my mind but the car just doenst seem to show any of the tell tale symptoms of something THAT severe.
Damn - now my somewhat chipper mood is starting to change to one more of angst and dread <img border="0" title="" alt="[Sad]" src="gr_sad.gif" />
I just dont see how I wouldnt have a noticeable power loss if something like that would happen. Power wise it feels just fine. Engine noise/vibration is completely normal.
I just cant see how it would be something like a cracked block or busted piston or valve. Maybe I saying this cause I am trying to ease my mind but the car just doenst seem to show any of the tell tale symptoms of something THAT severe.
Damn - now my somewhat chipper mood is starting to change to one more of angst and dread <img border="0" title="" alt="[Sad]" src="gr_sad.gif" />
10-23-2002, 06:19 AM
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Re: Engine Damage - How Bad Is It? Need Input Thank Mike - definately opened my eyes to a couple of things. I hope you are wrong though <img border="0" title="" alt="[Sad]" src="gr_sad.gif" /> LOL.
10-23-2002, 08:14 AM
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Re: Engine Damage - How Bad Is It? Need Input Damn this sounds familiar...
https://ls1tech.com/ubb/ultimatebb.p...=008124#000000
I've got the same thing happening. Oil all the way into the MAF but I didn't get all those codes. My car ran fine also until after a couple runs at the strip and I had no oil pressure. <img border="0" alt="[whiner]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cry.gif" /> I don't think the oil pressure issue is related to the oil control issue; seems like the pump may have died. Haven't tore into it yet.
One other tidbit. I have MAC headers and I put the ORP on in June.
https://ls1tech.com/ubb/ultimatebb.p...=001818#000000
The oil problem started getting worse as the summer went on. Seems to coincide with when I put the ORP on. Also, I had stock programing.
George
https://ls1tech.com/ubb/ultimatebb.p...=008124#000000
I've got the same thing happening. Oil all the way into the MAF but I didn't get all those codes. My car ran fine also until after a couple runs at the strip and I had no oil pressure. <img border="0" alt="[whiner]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cry.gif" /> I don't think the oil pressure issue is related to the oil control issue; seems like the pump may have died. Haven't tore into it yet.
One other tidbit. I have MAC headers and I put the ORP on in June.
https://ls1tech.com/ubb/ultimatebb.p...=001818#000000
The oil problem started getting worse as the summer went on. Seems to coincide with when I put the ORP on. Also, I had stock programing.
George
10-23-2002, 10:45 PM
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Re: Engine Damage - How Bad Is It? Need Input THATS A GOOD ? WISH I HAD THE ANSWER. IT JUST DON'T MAKE SENSE BUT IT HAPPENED. CAR ONLY USED 1/2 QUART BETWEEN OILCHANGES. AFTER MAC HEADER AND ORP INSTALL IT USES 3/4 quart every 150 miles.AND SMOKES LIKE FREIGHT TRAIN.I'M 1 OF THE CARS GMRACN IS TALKING ABOUT.PUT ABOUT 300 MILES ON IT AND SMOKES BAD . WISH I HAD NEVER PUT HEADERS ON CAR. TALKED WITH MAC TODAY. LOU SAID THEY HAVE NEVER HEARD OF THIS PROBLEM BEFORE.SAID HE WOULD GET BACK WITH ME. WELL WE WILL SEE.ONLY SMOKES ON DECEL
10-24-2002, 01:40 PM
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Re: Engine Damage - How Bad Is It? Need Input Yeah I am with you on wishing I hadnt installing the headers comment. I know I am in just a bad mood cause of all of this stuff so it is a biased comment.
Especially if the power gains (or not) I saw were legit and not just a result of the tuning/engine trouble I am currently having.
Basically it amounted to O difference in ET - a loss of 2 mph in the trap and approximately $800 bucks for a little more rumble <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />
Hopefully when all this gets fixed - I will see some better numbers.
Especially if the power gains (or not) I saw were legit and not just a result of the tuning/engine trouble I am currently having.
Basically it amounted to O difference in ET - a loss of 2 mph in the trap and approximately $800 bucks for a little more rumble <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />
Hopefully when all this gets fixed - I will see some better numbers.
10-24-2002, 02:54 PM
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Re: Engine Damage - How Bad Is It? Need Input Here is what I would do to figure out what's going on:
1) Take off MAF, and the air intake system, clean it all. Clean MAF with contact cleaner etc.
2) Pop off radiator cap. Top if off to the top. Leave cap off.
3) Disconnect, reconnect battery.
4) Start car, monitor radiator, top off until the tstat opens and it's almost boiling over and shut it.
5) Do not beat on car for next 2-3 days, and check radiator cold each morning.
After that I would play with the pcv system and put in some inline filters etc., since I think that's the problem.
Oil on the MAF will cause the car to do weird things.
1) Take off MAF, and the air intake system, clean it all. Clean MAF with contact cleaner etc.
2) Pop off radiator cap. Top if off to the top. Leave cap off.
3) Disconnect, reconnect battery.
4) Start car, monitor radiator, top off until the tstat opens and it's almost boiling over and shut it.
5) Do not beat on car for next 2-3 days, and check radiator cold each morning.
After that I would play with the pcv system and put in some inline filters etc., since I think that's the problem.
Oil on the MAF will cause the car to do weird things.
10-27-2002, 09:47 AM
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Re: Engine Damage - How Bad Is It? Need Input One option dismissed - PVC system is OK. Everything looked just fine.
However........
The leak down compression test confirmed I no longer have a #5 cylinder - lol.
All other cylinders were reading around 180-195 psi while #5 jetted all the way up to a whopping 54 psi.
Pulled the pushrods out and they all looked good and even shot some oil into the cylinder to attempt to seal the ring temporarly and it didnt work.
New diagnosis (still a guess at this point) - burnt valve seal or bent valve.
Still need to try a few more things out to narrow down and cofirm.
Since this a STOCK motor with less than 15K miles on her (very limited track exposure - ie, not hard miles), should it be something as serious as it seems to be leaning to - the car will go back to the dealer.
Can anyone say .......... factory flaw = NEW LS1.
Still hoping we find something else out though that isnt too bad.
However........
The leak down compression test confirmed I no longer have a #5 cylinder - lol.
All other cylinders were reading around 180-195 psi while #5 jetted all the way up to a whopping 54 psi.
Pulled the pushrods out and they all looked good and even shot some oil into the cylinder to attempt to seal the ring temporarly and it didnt work.
New diagnosis (still a guess at this point) - burnt valve seal or bent valve.
Still need to try a few more things out to narrow down and cofirm.
Since this a STOCK motor with less than 15K miles on her (very limited track exposure - ie, not hard miles), should it be something as serious as it seems to be leaning to - the car will go back to the dealer.
Can anyone say .......... factory flaw = NEW LS1.
Still hoping we find something else out though that isnt too bad.