Bit The Bullet, Tell me what ya think of my coming bumpstick
12-02-2002, 04:43 PM
#21
TECH Apprentice
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Salisbury, Md
Posts: 314
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Bit The Bullet, Tell me what ya think of my coming bumpstick Comp sent me an xe cam instead of an xe-r cam. Go figure hugh. grind number 3715R/3715R. I am only going with 565 lift. Do you think I will benefit from going with an xe-r over the xe? I don't understand why it is so hard to get an order right. I SPECIFICALLY REQUESTED XE-R LOBES. My pushrods are on back order also. Man I am getting hot.
12-02-2002, 04:58 PM
#22
LS1Tech Co-Founder
iTrader: (34)
Re: Bit The Bullet, Tell me what ya think of my coming bumpstick Different can be cool, I ran a 236/240//111 cam a few years ago in my 346ci motor. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />
But I would not run a 110 lsa cam unless you had more compression, and even then I would run it straight up or two degrees retarded as suggested by the many solid folks who have already commented.
But I would not run a 110 lsa cam unless you had more compression, and even then I would run it straight up or two degrees retarded as suggested by the many solid folks who have already commented.
12-02-2002, 08:55 PM
#23
Re: Bit The Bullet, Tell me what ya think of my coming bumpstick </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by 99 Black Bird T/A:
Dyno charts, I saw of the B1 (114 LSA) vs T1 (112 LSA) showed the T1 made power a little sooner and lower than the B1. All the data I've seen indicates lower LSA push the power band down a little. All the data I've seen indicates wider LSA's idle better, flatter the curve some but push the powerband a little higher.
I don't have a link to that chart maybe someone else does, as has Nineball posted it several times.[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Those dyno charts aren't telling the entire/true story of LSA. Most people here think that LSA pushes/pulls the ICL. But that is wrong, the ICL dictates the LSA. A wide LSA alone will push the rpm lower in the rpm range, although broader. A narrow LSA, by itself without touching the intake valve events will move the peak/power band up, conversly causing a narrow field of power. The T1 and B1 (I can bet) do not have the same intake valve events (IVO and IVC points). That is why many think that the wider LSA peak higher in the rpm than a narrow LSA, because no one wants to say the ICL is being retarded on the B1 (114 LSA). The retarded ICL has more influence on the rpm range than the LSA.
Who here really knows what is happening with the exhaust/intake relationship when talking about LSA? Anyone, this has been explained to me until I fully understood it. Once you understand what is happening in the combustion chamber (relative to only the LSA), you'll see that a narrow LSA = higher rpm/narrow power band, and wide LSA = lower (well, not as high) rpm/ broader power band.
Don't take this as a flame anyone. And I am not attacking 99 Black Bird T/A either. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" /> Just trying to help those who want to learn about this stuff.
Dyno charts, I saw of the B1 (114 LSA) vs T1 (112 LSA) showed the T1 made power a little sooner and lower than the B1. All the data I've seen indicates lower LSA push the power band down a little. All the data I've seen indicates wider LSA's idle better, flatter the curve some but push the powerband a little higher.
I don't have a link to that chart maybe someone else does, as has Nineball posted it several times.[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Those dyno charts aren't telling the entire/true story of LSA. Most people here think that LSA pushes/pulls the ICL. But that is wrong, the ICL dictates the LSA. A wide LSA alone will push the rpm lower in the rpm range, although broader. A narrow LSA, by itself without touching the intake valve events will move the peak/power band up, conversly causing a narrow field of power. The T1 and B1 (I can bet) do not have the same intake valve events (IVO and IVC points). That is why many think that the wider LSA peak higher in the rpm than a narrow LSA, because no one wants to say the ICL is being retarded on the B1 (114 LSA). The retarded ICL has more influence on the rpm range than the LSA.
Who here really knows what is happening with the exhaust/intake relationship when talking about LSA? Anyone, this has been explained to me until I fully understood it. Once you understand what is happening in the combustion chamber (relative to only the LSA), you'll see that a narrow LSA = higher rpm/narrow power band, and wide LSA = lower (well, not as high) rpm/ broader power band.
Don't take this as a flame anyone. And I am not attacking 99 Black Bird T/A either. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" /> Just trying to help those who want to learn about this stuff.
12-02-2002, 11:35 PM
#24
Banned
iTrader: (10)
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 3,721
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Bit The Bullet, Tell me what ya think of my coming bumpstick </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by DailyAluminumBlock:
<strong>Read people, read. First off, the cam has already been ordered. Second, I requested different lift then the typical xe-r grind which is 581 (I chose 565 because of head stalling and 918 issues, plus I will be getting stage 2 heads in the future). Third, I don't want to be like everyone else with there 224/224 112 or 114 lsa cam. I thought I would try something different. There is alot of theory here talking about what the down sides of this cam are. Any actual numbers or real experience to back this up. I am still not convinced that anyone actually knows what lsa does to the power band. Half say it raises it, half say it lowers it.
P.S. Sorry if the post seems bitter, I just got back from the bar with a b@tch that decided to yack in my car even know I asked here 30+ times if she felt o.k. and offered to pull over.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[chug]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_chug.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[barf]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_barf.gif" />
Since the cam is already ordered just put it in and see what happens. Most cams dyno within 10hp. The good thing is that you went with a single pattern. It should work great with a 6600rpm rev limiter
<strong>Read people, read. First off, the cam has already been ordered. Second, I requested different lift then the typical xe-r grind which is 581 (I chose 565 because of head stalling and 918 issues, plus I will be getting stage 2 heads in the future). Third, I don't want to be like everyone else with there 224/224 112 or 114 lsa cam. I thought I would try something different. There is alot of theory here talking about what the down sides of this cam are. Any actual numbers or real experience to back this up. I am still not convinced that anyone actually knows what lsa does to the power band. Half say it raises it, half say it lowers it.
P.S. Sorry if the post seems bitter, I just got back from the bar with a b@tch that decided to yack in my car even know I asked here 30+ times if she felt o.k. and offered to pull over.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[chug]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_chug.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[barf]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_barf.gif" />
Since the cam is already ordered just put it in and see what happens. Most cams dyno within 10hp. The good thing is that you went with a single pattern. It should work great with a 6600rpm rev limiter
12-03-2002, 12:18 AM
#25
Re: Bit The Bullet, Tell me what ya think of my coming bumpstick </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by DailyAluminumBlock:
<strong>Comp sent me an xe cam instead of an xe-r cam. Go figure hugh. grind number 3715R/3715R. I am only going with 565 lift. Do you think I will benefit from going with an xe-r over the xe? I don't understand why it is so hard to get an order right. I SPECIFICALLY REQUESTED XE-R LOBES. My pushrods are on back order also. Man I am getting hot.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Daily,
I'm sorry you didn't get what you requested from Comp. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Sad]" src="gr_sad.gif" />
I do not think, Comp offers or makes a XE-R with less than .581 lift, custom or otherwise. As I mentioned earlier, the XE-R lobe design yeilds .581 lift. Sounds like Comp gave you the lift you wanted at the expense of the lobe you wanted. Comp is sneaky about this sort of thing.
The XE is a very good cam. Your valve train will probably be quieter with the XE than with an XE-R. The valve springs won't be stressed as badly.
The XE will only be a few rwhp under what the XE-R would do with ported heads. With stock heads I don't think there will be much difference in an XE or XE-R powerwise.
Best Wishes
<small>[ December 03, 2002, 12:21 AM: Message edited by: 99 Black Bird T/A ]</small>
<strong>Comp sent me an xe cam instead of an xe-r cam. Go figure hugh. grind number 3715R/3715R. I am only going with 565 lift. Do you think I will benefit from going with an xe-r over the xe? I don't understand why it is so hard to get an order right. I SPECIFICALLY REQUESTED XE-R LOBES. My pushrods are on back order also. Man I am getting hot.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Daily,
I'm sorry you didn't get what you requested from Comp. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Sad]" src="gr_sad.gif" />
I do not think, Comp offers or makes a XE-R with less than .581 lift, custom or otherwise. As I mentioned earlier, the XE-R lobe design yeilds .581 lift. Sounds like Comp gave you the lift you wanted at the expense of the lobe you wanted. Comp is sneaky about this sort of thing.
The XE is a very good cam. Your valve train will probably be quieter with the XE than with an XE-R. The valve springs won't be stressed as badly.
The XE will only be a few rwhp under what the XE-R would do with ported heads. With stock heads I don't think there will be much difference in an XE or XE-R powerwise.
Best Wishes
<small>[ December 03, 2002, 12:21 AM: Message edited by: 99 Black Bird T/A ]</small>
12-03-2002, 12:29 AM
#26
Re: Bit The Bullet, Tell me what ya think of my coming bumpstick </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by MRZ28HO:
Those dyno charts aren't telling the entire/true story of LSA. Most people here think that LSA pushes/pulls the ICL. The T1 and B1 (I can bet) do not have the same intake valve events (IVO and IVC points). That is why many think that the wider LSA peak higher in the rpm than a narrow LSA, because no one wants to say the ICL is being retarded on the B1 (114 LSA). The retarded ICL has more influence on the rpm range than the LSA.
Who here really knows what is happening with the exhaust/intake relationship when talking about LSA? [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't have the cam card specs on B1 and T1 to know for sure what the IVO or IVC is. I have been told many times, they are the same cam except for the LSA. Can you elaborate more, maybe showing us a link on Comps sight or elsewhere to help explain what your saying?
I've not seen any data to support your view, that certainly doesn't mean your wrong, just that I need to learn more...
BTW no offense taken, I'm here to learn like everyone else.
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" />
Those dyno charts aren't telling the entire/true story of LSA. Most people here think that LSA pushes/pulls the ICL. The T1 and B1 (I can bet) do not have the same intake valve events (IVO and IVC points). That is why many think that the wider LSA peak higher in the rpm than a narrow LSA, because no one wants to say the ICL is being retarded on the B1 (114 LSA). The retarded ICL has more influence on the rpm range than the LSA.
Who here really knows what is happening with the exhaust/intake relationship when talking about LSA? [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't have the cam card specs on B1 and T1 to know for sure what the IVO or IVC is. I have been told many times, they are the same cam except for the LSA. Can you elaborate more, maybe showing us a link on Comps sight or elsewhere to help explain what your saying?
I've not seen any data to support your view, that certainly doesn't mean your wrong, just that I need to learn more...
BTW no offense taken, I'm here to learn like everyone else.
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" />
12-03-2002, 07:13 AM
#27
TECH Apprentice
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Gambrills, MD
Posts: 331
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Bit The Bullet, Tell me what ya think of my coming bumpstick George, you hit the nail on the head.
IMHO the reason that LSA is so misunderstood is that we use imprecise terminology. What is "low-end" power for one person is "mid-range" for another. A "wide" powerband at the strip starts at 2500 RPMs, while on the street it's much lower. Most dyno pulls don't even measure torque below 2500 RPMs.
I have to agree that 4 degrees of advance on a 110 LSA seems a bit much. The dyno charts should be interesting.
IMHO the reason that LSA is so misunderstood is that we use imprecise terminology. What is "low-end" power for one person is "mid-range" for another. A "wide" powerband at the strip starts at 2500 RPMs, while on the street it's much lower. Most dyno pulls don't even measure torque below 2500 RPMs.
I have to agree that 4 degrees of advance on a 110 LSA seems a bit much. The dyno charts should be interesting.
12-03-2002, 09:38 AM
#28
TECH Apprentice
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Salisbury, Md
Posts: 314
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Bit The Bullet, Tell me what ya think of my coming bumpstick We shall see grasshoppa. Well at least as soon as they send me my damn pushrods <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="gr_images/icons/mad.gif" />
12-03-2002, 09:45 AM
#29
Re: Bit The Bullet, Tell me what ya think of my coming bumpstick Daily,
Have you considered an adjustable timing set in case you want to tweak your cam timing later on?
I think it would be a good idea, in case you wanted to experiment with testing the cam with less advance later on.
Have you considered an adjustable timing set in case you want to tweak your cam timing later on?
I think it would be a good idea, in case you wanted to experiment with testing the cam with less advance later on.
12-03-2002, 10:15 AM
#30
TECH Apprentice
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Salisbury, Md
Posts: 314
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Bit The Bullet, Tell me what ya think of my coming bumpstick How much more of a pain in the *** is an adjustable timing set to put on then a regular JWIS chain? Thanks.
12-03-2002, 11:07 AM
#31
TECH Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 10,341
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Bit The Bullet, Tell me what ya think of my coming bumpstick </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by DailyAluminumBlock:
<strong>There is alot of theory here talking about what the down sides of this cam are. Any actual numbers or real experience to back this up. I am still not convinced that anyone actually knows what lsa does to the power band. Half say it raises it, half say it lowers it.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actual numbers? Look at your valve timing events combined with advance retard ground in, ICL and LSA. It is not just "theory" LOL!
Your "special" cam is going to close the intake valve way early and take a hit on peak power ESPECIALLY RWHP after peak. You will get a bump in midrange power from the LSA and advance ground in but it will fall off drastically after peak.
It is cool to try something different and I think you had a good idea with the cam for lumpy idle. BUT you ordered it with 4 degrees advance ground in. This IS going to affect where your peak comes in. PERIOD
Chris
<small>[ December 03, 2002, 11:36 AM: Message edited by: Chris ARE 360 ]</small>
<strong>There is alot of theory here talking about what the down sides of this cam are. Any actual numbers or real experience to back this up. I am still not convinced that anyone actually knows what lsa does to the power band. Half say it raises it, half say it lowers it.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actual numbers? Look at your valve timing events combined with advance retard ground in, ICL and LSA. It is not just "theory" LOL!
Your "special" cam is going to close the intake valve way early and take a hit on peak power ESPECIALLY RWHP after peak. You will get a bump in midrange power from the LSA and advance ground in but it will fall off drastically after peak.
It is cool to try something different and I think you had a good idea with the cam for lumpy idle. BUT you ordered it with 4 degrees advance ground in. This IS going to affect where your peak comes in. PERIOD
Chris
<small>[ December 03, 2002, 11:36 AM: Message edited by: Chris ARE 360 ]</small>
