The "recipe" to 500 rwhp with heads and cam.
ditto , lots of good non biased info here 
06-23-2007, 07:32 PM
#102
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Patrick,
i really enjoyed reading your write-up, and i love reading about heads and cams, but for some strange reason your y-pipe really peaked my interest. would it be possible to have a similar set up on a car with the torque arm mounted to the tunnel brace?
also, the more you write about cams the more it makes we want to ditch my current custom cam and get one of yours... my current h/c combo seems to be low on hp and tq.
i really enjoyed reading your write-up, and i love reading about heads and cams, but for some strange reason your y-pipe really peaked my interest. would it be possible to have a similar set up on a car with the torque arm mounted to the tunnel brace?
also, the more you write about cams the more it makes we want to ditch my current custom cam and get one of yours... my current h/c combo seems to be low on hp and tq.
06-24-2007, 01:35 PM
#103
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Originally Posted by 2000TransAmWS6
but for some strange reason your y-pipe really peaked my interest. would it be possible to have a similar set up on a car with the torque arm mounted to the tunnel brace?
If some one could give us some measurments I could check next time I have Patrick car up on the lift.
Kurt
06-24-2007, 05:51 PM
#104
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Thanks Kurt!, i'll see if i can get some measurements this week
my Spohn tunnel brace hangs so low i figured that had to benefit me in some way, right!? haha
my Spohn tunnel brace hangs so low i figured that had to benefit me in some way, right!? haha
06-25-2007, 01:46 AM
#105
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Now throw a EFI vic jr and see what it picks up! I have seen 15whp over a fast 90 intake! With same 90mm N/W TB. He really didnt loose much down low torq! But hell he has a 3800 stall so he didnt really car about where he lost it
I have seen 15whp over a fast 90 intake! With same 90mm N/W TB. He really didnt loose much down low torq! But hell he has a 3800 stall so he didnt really car about where he lost it
06-27-2007, 11:38 PM
#106
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2000TransAmWS6 - measured it today. From the torque arm brace mount edge to the merge is 3". The drop required to clear the merge with a fingers gap is 2".
06-28-2007, 12:06 AM
#107
Originally Posted by Beaflag VonRathburg
Thanks for the answers, here's some more questions.
I was meening at what point does the added cylinder pressure of nitrous become too great and cause problems? I know there's lots of circumstances such as octane, distribution of fuel / nitrous, timing, compression, head bolt / stud clamping force, gasket selection, etc.... Let's say what's the most you could run on your combo provided all hardware stayed the same, but allowed for variables such as optimal tuning and octane?
Is this for your size jetting or all jetting? Let's say a 150 vs 250? Let's say you are below the 13-15 degree window. Basically it would reduce the effect of your jetting? Basically a 250 rwhp jet would become not so accurate say a 225 jet (random #)? What about the opposite end of the spectrum and having the timing above 13-15 range?
I'm pretty sure Patriot does this on some of their heads. I remember Gunnar selling 035 heads with 62cc welded chambers. Ideally though welding chambers shouldn't effect PtVC? Or does it depend on how much metal is added to the chambers?
I was also wondering about why you didn't decide to stick with the LSK lobes. You said it was unnecessary. Yet, wouldn't having the faster ramp rates allow you to take advantage of your great flowing heads? Even if it was .005 seconds more technically a larger amount of air would enter the cylinders. More air + adequate fuel = more power. What makes it unnecessary?
I like you combo, but let's say someone concentrated on the opposite flow wise. The low / middle flow numbers didn't matter so much and went for the higher numbers. I'm thinking of a nice solid roller setup when I put my engine back together. I know Tony Mamo's has a very high opinion of the solid setups as he runs one in his 383. What do you think about them? I've read some good results on here and would like to try it out.
Originally Posted by Patrick G
When your head lifts, the gasket blows or something breaks. I'm not real sure about the question as to whether you mean actual cylinder pressure during combustion or cranking psi or dynamic compression or WHAT?
Originally Posted by Patrick G
Yes, you can continue to pull timing, but to make maximum power on the spray, you want maximum cylinder pressure to occur around 13-15 degrees after TDC. If you keep retarding your timing, you risk having peak pressure occuring beyond the 13-15 degree window and power will be reduced.
Originally Posted by Patrick G
Welding chambers works as well or better than milling, but there are very few head porters that will finish a welded chamber to the proper configuration without charging an arm and a leg. 
This is not a budget process. There is so much power to be gained and lost in the combustion chamber. Doing it half-*** or wrong will ruin a great set of heads.
This is not a budget process. There is so much power to be gained and lost in the combustion chamber. Doing it half-*** or wrong will ruin a great set of heads.I was also wondering about why you didn't decide to stick with the LSK lobes. You said it was unnecessary. Yet, wouldn't having the faster ramp rates allow you to take advantage of your great flowing heads? Even if it was .005 seconds more technically a larger amount of air would enter the cylinders. More air + adequate fuel = more power. What makes it unnecessary?
I like you combo, but let's say someone concentrated on the opposite flow wise. The low / middle flow numbers didn't matter so much and went for the higher numbers. I'm thinking of a nice solid roller setup when I put my engine back together. I know Tony Mamo's has a very high opinion of the solid setups as he runs one in his 383. What do you think about them? I've read some good results on here and would like to try it out.
06-28-2007, 07:43 AM
#108
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If for street solid roller setup takes too much work to adjust lash on a regular basis.
Not user friendly.
power wise, yes you'll make more power assuming you have all the parts to feed it that much more air and fuel.
Not user friendly.
power wise, yes you'll make more power assuming you have all the parts to feed it that much more air and fuel.
06-28-2007, 08:38 PM
#109
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205s v. 225s
Case in point: I used to have AFR 205s and I swapped to AFR small bore 225s. The 225s flowed 20 cfm better at .550", 22cfm better at .600", and 25 cfm better at .650" than my old 205s. Guess what? We gained virtually 0 hp with the swap.
Would you say the 225s lower velocity (I presume?) did not negatively affect the power/torque curve, given these same components?
Superb work. Thanks for the effort.
06-29-2007, 06:35 AM
#110
Nice Patrick ... very nice. I'd like to ask a question. My setup is the AFR 205's milled to .060 ... with a 224/228 112 +1 Comp XE-R cam. It was set up with GM MLS gaskets. If I go with a .041" gasket, will it tighten up the quench area up without PTV endangerment? If this would work OK, then it would raise my dynamic compression and push my TQ up pretty nicely ... does this sound right? Would it be worth the expense as opposed to swapping in a 230/232 113 +1 Comp XE-R cam with the current GM MLS gaskets? I don't care too much anymore about dyno numbers. I just want to get a nice ET when I finally do run my car at the track for the first time.
06-29-2007, 07:07 AM
#111
TECH Senior Member
I think you mean milled to 60 cc.
A .060 mill would be like a 10cc mill or a 56cc chamber. Your motor would not even turn over.
To reply, first run your car as is, from your output, you should be able to run 11.4s or so.
A .060 mill would be like a 10cc mill or a 56cc chamber. Your motor would not even turn over.
To reply, first run your car as is, from your output, you should be able to run 11.4s or so.
07-02-2007, 12:09 PM
#113
Originally Posted by bwana
Patrick,
Would you say the 225s lower velocity (I presume?) did not negatively affect the power/torque curve, given these same components?
Superb work. Thanks for the effort.
Would you say the 225s lower velocity (I presume?) did not negatively affect the power/torque curve, given these same components?
Superb work. Thanks for the effort.
__________________
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2018 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 Pat G tuned.
LS1,LS2,LS3,LS7,LT1 Custom Camshaft Specialist For custom camshaft help press here.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2018 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 Pat G tuned.
LS1,LS2,LS3,LS7,LT1 Custom Camshaft Specialist For custom camshaft help press here.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
07-02-2007, 12:28 PM
#114
Originally Posted by Beaflag VonRathburg
Thanks for the answers, here's some more questions.
I was meening at what point does the added cylinder pressure of nitrous become too great and cause problems? I know there's lots of circumstances such as octane, distribution of fuel / nitrous, timing, compression, head bolt / stud clamping force, gasket selection, etc.... Let's say what's the most you could run on your combo provided all hardware stayed the same, but allowed for variables such as optimal tuning and octane?
Is this for your size jetting or all jetting? Let's say a 150 vs 250? Let's say you are below the 13-15 degree window. Basically it would reduce the effect of your jetting? Basically a 250 rwhp jet would become not so accurate say a 225 jet (random #)? What about the opposite end of the spectrum and having the timing above 13-15 range?
I'm pretty sure Patriot does this on some of their heads. I remember Gunnar selling 035 heads with 62cc welded chambers. Ideally though welding chambers shouldn't effect PtVC? Or does it depend on how much metal is added to the chambers?
I was also wondering about why you didn't decide to stick with the LSK lobes. You said it was unnecessary. Yet, wouldn't having the faster ramp rates allow you to take advantage of your great flowing heads? Even if it was .005 seconds more technically a larger amount of air would enter the cylinders. More air + adequate fuel = more power. What makes it unnecessary?
I like you combo, but let's say someone concentrated on the opposite flow wise. The low / middle flow numbers didn't matter so much and went for the higher numbers. I'm thinking of a nice solid roller setup when I put my engine back together. I know Tony Mamo's has a very high opinion of the solid setups as he runs one in his 383. What do you think about them? I've read some good results on here and would like to try it out.
I was meening at what point does the added cylinder pressure of nitrous become too great and cause problems? I know there's lots of circumstances such as octane, distribution of fuel / nitrous, timing, compression, head bolt / stud clamping force, gasket selection, etc.... Let's say what's the most you could run on your combo provided all hardware stayed the same, but allowed for variables such as optimal tuning and octane?
Is this for your size jetting or all jetting? Let's say a 150 vs 250? Let's say you are below the 13-15 degree window. Basically it would reduce the effect of your jetting? Basically a 250 rwhp jet would become not so accurate say a 225 jet (random #)? What about the opposite end of the spectrum and having the timing above 13-15 range?
I'm pretty sure Patriot does this on some of their heads. I remember Gunnar selling 035 heads with 62cc welded chambers. Ideally though welding chambers shouldn't effect PtVC? Or does it depend on how much metal is added to the chambers?
I was also wondering about why you didn't decide to stick with the LSK lobes. You said it was unnecessary. Yet, wouldn't having the faster ramp rates allow you to take advantage of your great flowing heads? Even if it was .005 seconds more technically a larger amount of air would enter the cylinders. More air + adequate fuel = more power. What makes it unnecessary?
I like you combo, but let's say someone concentrated on the opposite flow wise. The low / middle flow numbers didn't matter so much and went for the higher numbers. I'm thinking of a nice solid roller setup when I put my engine back together. I know Tony Mamo's has a very high opinion of the solid setups as he runs one in his 383. What do you think about them? I've read some good results on here and would like to try it out.
Unless you were running a sheet metal intake that did not knock down the flow of the head, I think you would be disappointed chosing a head that flowed outstanding above .500" at the expense of airflow in the .300"-.500" range. There are too many 330-350 cfm heads that make crappy power in a 346 when running a FAST intake. Why? Because they sacrifice the low and mid-lift flow to get that killer number up high. Most of this great flow up high gets knocked down once you bolt up the intake manifold. The power is lackluster.
Check the mid-lift flow numbers of TFS or ETP heads sometime and you'll see why they make so much power. It's not their top end numbers that make them so strong, it's their outstanding flow at .300,.400, and .500". Brian Tooley has often quoted the importance of mid-lift air flow. Sadly, too many people purchasing cylinder heads only look at the sexy peak number and pay no attention to the flow numbers that count.
__________________
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2018 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 Pat G tuned.
LS1,LS2,LS3,LS7,LT1 Custom Camshaft Specialist For custom camshaft help press here.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2018 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 Pat G tuned.
LS1,LS2,LS3,LS7,LT1 Custom Camshaft Specialist For custom camshaft help press here.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
07-02-2007, 12:45 PM
#115
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Great write up Patrick. I agree with you 100%. I've been running the GMPP cnc LS6 heads for 6 plus years with good success. Tony has done the same thing with you 205's that GM did with their head. These heads have a decent inlet port ,are milled for compression, and come with lite weight valves. The only down side to them are the stock valve sizes. I've even been running just an LS6 manifold on them. People need to know that you don't need huge cams and large valve heads to enjoy these cars. See you at the next Texas Mile.
07-02-2007, 12:47 PM
#116
TECH Senior Member
Originally Posted by Patrick G
It has been proven time and again that head flow gains above 280cfm are greatly compromised when you put a FAST intake in front of the head. This is the entire reason why Tony Mamo elected to increase low and mid-lift flow at the expense of top-end flow in my application. My AFR 205 head flow stalled at .575" (300 cfm) so in my case, running a .650" cam would actually get the valve into an area where it was flowing LESS. There was just no need in this particular case to go with lift higher than .605-.610". Had the heads pulled nicely to .650-.700", then I probably would have run LSK lobes. I think that this experiment helped support the importance of low and mid-lift flow when running a FAST intake.
Unless you were running a sheet metal intake that did not knock down the flow of the head, I think you would be disappointed chosing a head that flowed outstanding above .500" at the expense of airflow in the .300"-.500" range. There are too many 330-350 cfm heads that make crappy power in a 346 when running a FAST intake. Why? Because they sacrifice the low and mid-lift flow to get that killer number up high. Most of this great flow up high gets knocked down once you bolt up the intake manifold. The power is lackluster.
Check the mid-lift flow numbers of TFS or ETP heads sometime and you'll see why they make so much power. It's not their top end numbers that make them so strong, it's their outstanding flow at .300,.400, and .500". Brian Tooley has often quoted the importance of mid-lift air flow. Sadly, too many people purchasing cylinder heads only look at the sexy peak number and pay no attention to the flow numbers that count.
Unless you were running a sheet metal intake that did not knock down the flow of the head, I think you would be disappointed chosing a head that flowed outstanding above .500" at the expense of airflow in the .300"-.500" range. There are too many 330-350 cfm heads that make crappy power in a 346 when running a FAST intake. Why? Because they sacrifice the low and mid-lift flow to get that killer number up high. Most of this great flow up high gets knocked down once you bolt up the intake manifold. The power is lackluster.
Check the mid-lift flow numbers of TFS or ETP heads sometime and you'll see why they make so much power. It's not their top end numbers that make them so strong, it's their outstanding flow at .300,.400, and .500". Brian Tooley has often quoted the importance of mid-lift air flow. Sadly, too many people purchasing cylinder heads only look at the sexy peak number and pay no attention to the flow numbers that count.
07-02-2007, 01:15 PM
#118
Originally Posted by PREDATOR-Z
So could we say that the lobe intensity at different lifts of the LSK lobe VS the XE-R, kinda acts like a crutch and that is why they make more power than a same cam on XE-R lobes, yet because of the intake and head flow we are actualy seing less than the actual potential of these lobes?
For example, a 230 XE-R lobe has .592" lift and 151 degrees duration at .200".
A 230 XFI lobe has .612" lift and 154 degrees duration at .200".
A 231 LSK lobe has .643" lift and 156 degrees of duration at .200"
The extra lift is great, but most of the power gains come from the faster ramps that give you more duration at .200".
The fact that my car made 500 rwhp on the popular XE-R lobes just shows that running super high lift lobes does not guarantee higher hp numbers. Combo, combo.
__________________
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2018 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 Pat G tuned.
LS1,LS2,LS3,LS7,LT1 Custom Camshaft Specialist For custom camshaft help press here.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2018 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 Pat G tuned.
LS1,LS2,LS3,LS7,LT1 Custom Camshaft Specialist For custom camshaft help press here.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
