bigger cam or a FAST 90/90
07-30-2007, 11:48 AM
#23
The ported intake will show you similar (and more than likely greater) gains in the higher RPM range than the larger cam in question would provide, but it wont come at the expense of a slightly softer bottom end (cams are always a trade off....more peak power means less low end grunt). Obviously you will take a small hit in fuel economy as well with the additional overlap from the larger stick. Drivability and tip-in will also suffer. Some of the negatives of the cam swap could be cured by higher static compression but that would require cylinder head removal and refacing, obviously not a consideration here.
Besides the additional lope at idle (whether that floats your boat or not or weighs in on the decsion), the cam swap offers the most compromises for similar peak power gains. There is something to be said about a car with great driving manners that lays down a number and its very possible to make BIG power with smaller cams....the trick is in hitting all the smaller details (which add up) to make it happen. The end result being a very powerful car thats a pleasure to drive every day. If making big power in a stealthy package is one of your goals, the ported 90/90 induction is paramount because it represents one of the largest gains you can purshase without negatively impacting low speed engine response, drivability, and power. The only thing usually hurt is the wallet but those tend to always heal up over time...LOL
Also, I failed to mention how the SOTP and throttle response increase from the 90/90 set-up make it the clear winner (IMHO) as it will add to you driving experience every day where the larger cammed stock intake will actually detract from it.
Good luck Phil....let us know what you decide
Tony
Besides the additional lope at idle (whether that floats your boat or not or weighs in on the decsion), the cam swap offers the most compromises for similar peak power gains. There is something to be said about a car with great driving manners that lays down a number and its very possible to make BIG power with smaller cams....the trick is in hitting all the smaller details (which add up) to make it happen. The end result being a very powerful car thats a pleasure to drive every day. If making big power in a stealthy package is one of your goals, the ported 90/90 induction is paramount because it represents one of the largest gains you can purshase without negatively impacting low speed engine response, drivability, and power. The only thing usually hurt is the wallet but those tend to always heal up over time...LOL
Also, I failed to mention how the SOTP and throttle response increase from the 90/90 set-up make it the clear winner (IMHO) as it will add to you driving experience every day where the larger cammed stock intake will actually detract from it.
Good luck Phil....let us know what you decide
Tony
Last edited by Tony Mamo @ AFR; 07-30-2007 at 03:47 PM.
07-30-2007, 12:05 PM
#24
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Originally Posted by Tony Mamo @ AFR
The ported intake will show you similar gains (give or take) in the higher RPM range that the larger cam would also provide, but it wont come at the expense of a slightly softer bottom end (cams are always a trade off....more peak power means less low end grunt). Obviously you will take a small hit in fuel economy as well with the additional overlap from the larger stick. Drivability and tip-in will also suffer. Some of the negatives of the cam swap could be cured by higher static compression but that would require cylinder head removal and refacing, obviously not a consideration here.
Besides the additional lope at idle (whether that floats your boat or not or weighs in on the decsion), the cam swap offers the most compromises for similar peak power gains. There is something to be said about a car with great driving manners that lays down a number and its very possible to make BIG power with smaller cams....the trick is in hitting all the smaller details (which add up) to make it happen. The end result being a very powerful car thats a pleasure to drive every day. If making big power in a stealthy package is one of your goals, the ported 90/90 induction is paramount because it represents one of the largest gains you can purshase without negatively impacting low speed engine response, drivability, and power. The only thing usually hurt is the wallet but those tend to always heal up over time...LOL
Also, I failed to mention how the SOTP and throttle response increase from the 90/90 set-up make it the clear winner (IMHO) as it will add to you driving experience every day where the larger cammed stock intake will actually detract from it.
Good luck Phil....let us know what you decide
Tony
Besides the additional lope at idle (whether that floats your boat or not or weighs in on the decsion), the cam swap offers the most compromises for similar peak power gains. There is something to be said about a car with great driving manners that lays down a number and its very possible to make BIG power with smaller cams....the trick is in hitting all the smaller details (which add up) to make it happen. The end result being a very powerful car thats a pleasure to drive every day. If making big power in a stealthy package is one of your goals, the ported 90/90 induction is paramount because it represents one of the largest gains you can purshase without negatively impacting low speed engine response, drivability, and power. The only thing usually hurt is the wallet but those tend to always heal up over time...LOL
Also, I failed to mention how the SOTP and throttle response increase from the 90/90 set-up make it the clear winner (IMHO) as it will add to you driving experience every day where the larger cammed stock intake will actually detract from it.
Good luck Phil....let us know what you decide
Tony
i think after that statement it is pretty obvious what he will decide. good luck with the 90/90 swap and let us know how you like it!
07-30-2007, 01:38 PM
#26
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Originally Posted by ProjecT 9
I'd go with the 90/90. sell the TV2 and put that money else where. with the 90/90 combo i would think you would pick up power all throughout the powerband with the biggest increase in the higher RPMS. better yet use that money you get from selling the TV2 and get the Fast intake ported/port matched by Tony Mamo! 
i wont give you a actual figure in rwhp i think you would pick up, but i think it would be a nice gain!
Jon
i wont give you a actual figure in rwhp i think you would pick up, but i think it would be a nice gain!Jon
07-30-2007, 01:55 PM
#27
My Mamo-ported FAST 90 gave me a 29 rwhp gain over the LS6 intake with ported TB. That was with AFR 205 heads and a small 215/230 .600/.578 117LSA CheaTR cam. (see dyno sheet below) Going from a 228R to a TV2 is going to give you MAYBE 10 rwhp gain. That's not really a big jump in cam IMO. A FAST 90 will give you a bigger gain with no downsides (besides a lighter wallet).
__________________
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2018 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 Pat G tuned.
LS1,LS2,LS3,LS7,LT1 Custom Camshaft Specialist For custom camshaft help press here.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2018 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 Pat G tuned.
LS1,LS2,LS3,LS7,LT1 Custom Camshaft Specialist For custom camshaft help press here.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
07-30-2007, 02:39 PM
#28
Between what Patrick and Tony have said and found, it would seem the FAST 90/90 may be better overall.
The part about installing another cam that worries me is that will make it the forth time the motor is apart. ( re-ringed at 9500 miles, and two cams)
The FAST I can install ( with WKMCD's help
)
The feel im getting is bottom line, Ill make more power upgrading to the port 90/90, than upgrading from the 228R to the TV2.
Anyone want to buy a cam kit ?
Patrick, your dyno is the same day, just switching manifolds from LS6 to ported 90/90 ?
The part about installing another cam that worries me is that will make it the forth time the motor is apart. ( re-ringed at 9500 miles, and two cams)
The FAST I can install ( with WKMCD's help
)The feel im getting is bottom line, Ill make more power upgrading to the port 90/90, than upgrading from the 228R to the TV2.
Anyone want to buy a cam kit ?
Patrick, your dyno is the same day, just switching manifolds from LS6 to ported 90/90 ?
07-30-2007, 02:52 PM
#29
Originally Posted by Phil'sC5vette
Patrick, your dyno is the same day, just switching manifolds from LS6 to ported 90/90 ?
__________________
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2018 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 Pat G tuned.
LS1,LS2,LS3,LS7,LT1 Custom Camshaft Specialist For custom camshaft help press here.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2018 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 Pat G tuned.
LS1,LS2,LS3,LS7,LT1 Custom Camshaft Specialist For custom camshaft help press here.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
07-31-2007, 11:40 AM
#32
I think this is the post Phil is referencing above....
That actually is an old wives tale....but a very prevalent one on this board and others.
My ported 90/90 package was a key contributor to my former bonestock 346 short with a 224 cam producing 475-480 RWHP on a regular basis depending on what time of day and who's dyno we might have been testing on.
The FAST 90 is a good piece.....and a ported FAST 90 is even better. It works in practically every application it's applied (mild to wild). Your cylinder head flows more air "net" to the cylinder (with some of the intake restriction removed) and you make more power.
To understand its value a little better its essentially like bolting on a cylinder head with an intake port that flows some 15-20 CFM better....thats the typical increase in net intake port flow when tested thru a ported FAST runner (versus an LS6). A stock out of the box FAST will increase net flow around 7-9 CFM which isnt bad either. Dont forget that these gains are over an LS6 intake which is 6 CFM stronger than an LS1 or LS2 intake.
For example...
Take say an AFR 205 head that achieves peak flow at .600 lift with a radius plate in front of the intake port (some shops use clay). This is the way most published flow figures are achieved. Lets call it 300 CFM @ .600 when tested on a 3.900 bore size which most LS1/LS6 engines are built on.
Now remove radius plate and actually flow the same port thru an LS1 intake manifold. At the same lift point we are now flowing (gulp) 254 CFM! How's that for a wake up call....
Swap to an LS6....Things are looking a little better at 260 CFM but we are still down 40 CFM.
Swap to a FAST (unported)....looking better yet at 268 CFM
Now bolt on a ported FAST and we are getting alot closer to our theoretical best (mathcing a radius plate) at 278 CFM. While that may still sound like its aways from 300, losing only 22 CFM thru the intake is quite good. A standard 23' SBC would need a properly ported race style single plane intake to match that type of loss.
If you were to add a well designed sheet metal or IR style intake you may reduce the restriction another 10-12 CFM but its shorter runners will only benefit the end user at very high RPM's and its no longer in the realm of this discussion.
Note that power output will go up accordingly with every move to a better (less restrictive) intake....usually worth 1-1.5 HP per CFM....you guys can do the math.
Hope this helps and gives you guys something to think about
Cheers,
Tony
Originally Posted by WKMCD
I may have bought in to the FAST only works well with more radical builds ie; larger cams. It looks like Tony M shoots that theory down..
Nice work Tony.
I may have bought in to the FAST only works well with more radical builds ie; larger cams. It looks like Tony M shoots that theory down..
Nice work Tony.
My ported 90/90 package was a key contributor to my former bonestock 346 short with a 224 cam producing 475-480 RWHP on a regular basis depending on what time of day and who's dyno we might have been testing on.
The FAST 90 is a good piece.....and a ported FAST 90 is even better. It works in practically every application it's applied (mild to wild). Your cylinder head flows more air "net" to the cylinder (with some of the intake restriction removed) and you make more power.
To understand its value a little better its essentially like bolting on a cylinder head with an intake port that flows some 15-20 CFM better....thats the typical increase in net intake port flow when tested thru a ported FAST runner (versus an LS6). A stock out of the box FAST will increase net flow around 7-9 CFM which isnt bad either. Dont forget that these gains are over an LS6 intake which is 6 CFM stronger than an LS1 or LS2 intake.
For example...
Take say an AFR 205 head that achieves peak flow at .600 lift with a radius plate in front of the intake port (some shops use clay). This is the way most published flow figures are achieved. Lets call it 300 CFM @ .600 when tested on a 3.900 bore size which most LS1/LS6 engines are built on.
Now remove radius plate and actually flow the same port thru an LS1 intake manifold. At the same lift point we are now flowing (gulp) 254 CFM! How's that for a wake up call....
Swap to an LS6....Things are looking a little better at 260 CFM but we are still down 40 CFM.
Swap to a FAST (unported)....looking better yet at 268 CFM
Now bolt on a ported FAST and we are getting alot closer to our theoretical best (mathcing a radius plate) at 278 CFM. While that may still sound like its aways from 300, losing only 22 CFM thru the intake is quite good. A standard 23' SBC would need a properly ported race style single plane intake to match that type of loss.
If you were to add a well designed sheet metal or IR style intake you may reduce the restriction another 10-12 CFM but its shorter runners will only benefit the end user at very high RPM's and its no longer in the realm of this discussion.
Note that power output will go up accordingly with every move to a better (less restrictive) intake....usually worth 1-1.5 HP per CFM....you guys can do the math.
Hope this helps and gives you guys something to think about
Cheers,
Tony
