MS3 surging and sputtering
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TECH Apprentice
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From: Hollidaysburg, PA
MS3 surging and sputtering well, i finally got the beast on the road again. mods are: ms3, prc 2.5 heads, pacesetter LTs, TSP catted y-pipe, magnaflow catback, QMP air lid, slp MAF, and TSP mail order tune. i realize this cam is pretty aggressive, so the roughness and all that i'm cool with. the problem i'm having is in parking lots, she bucks like a bronco sometimes, then at speed, if the revs drop below 2k, it starts sputtering. the back bumper i turning black, so i know it's runnin MAD rich!! i'm just lookin for some advice...after around 8 grand in repair, mods, and labor, i'm runnin a little low on credit. can't really afford a dyno tune at the moment, with christmas creepin up. BUT, i do have retunes for a year from TSP. should i at least send the pcm back to them and see if we can smooth it out a little? i was gonna drive it back home for thanksgiving to a buddy's dyno just to get some graphs to send back with it, but i don't think i trust it driving 600 miles like this. plus, i don't think he has WB on his setup yet. what do you guys and gals think?
--bill
P.S. - Mods, if this belongs in tuning, please move.
--bill
P.S. - Mods, if this belongs in tuning, please move.
Last edited by squall01; Nov 14, 2007 at 09:06 AM.
Sounds like it needs more tuning... that is if everything else is up to snuff and working correctly. Make sure you have no vac leaks, exhaust leaks and that all sensors seem to be good, from there contact tsp about a retune if the problem persists.
I agree with Rad...ditch the mail order tune and find a way to get it on the roller.
I think that'll help with most of your problems.
A check of the 02s would also be a good idea to make sure they're functioning as expected.
I think that'll help with most of your problems.
A check of the 02s would also be a good idea to make sure they're functioning as expected.
You don't need a dyno tune, you need a comprehensive driveability tune. Your TB will need a bigger hole, your TPS sensor will need to read 0% when closed, your IAC counts need to be between 30-60 with the AC off and your running airflow needs to be dialed in to what the motor wants. This is all before you begin your street tune. If you don't address the RAF tables first, you'll be chasing your tail later.
You can't do this mail order because there are many mechanical issues on your car that need to be sorted out first.
One last thing, cats on a cam with that much overlap is not going to live up to its full potential. Back pressure is the devil with that much overlap.
You can't do this mail order because there are many mechanical issues on your car that need to be sorted out first.
One last thing, cats on a cam with that much overlap is not going to live up to its full potential. Back pressure is the devil with that much overlap.
__________________
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2022 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 S&B CAI, Corsa catback.
2023 Corvette 3LT Z51 soon to be modified.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2022 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 S&B CAI, Corsa catback.
2023 Corvette 3LT Z51 soon to be modified.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
Thread Starter
TECH Apprentice
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Joined: Aug 2004
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From: Hollidaysburg, PA
if i was still living in WV, i would've gone ory. here in PA, they use the sniffer, i really had no choice. 
as for ditching the mail order tune...i just want to get it to the point where i can actually drive it to a dyno.
patrick, what sort of mechanical issues do you mean?
as for ditching the mail order tune...i just want to get it to the point where i can actually drive it to a dyno. patrick, what sort of mechanical issues do you mean?
Thread Starter
TECH Apprentice
iTrader: (3)
Joined: Aug 2004
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From: Hollidaysburg, PA
forgot to add that one of the cats was crushed by the jackasses at the exhaust shop. that's gettin fixed tomorrow. how big of a problem could that cause? i'm really not this big of an idiot, just know very little about how the computer works.
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if i was still living in WV, i would've gone ory. here in PA, they use the sniffer, i really had no choice. as for ditching the mail order tune...i just want to get it to the point where i can actually drive it to a dyno.
patrick, what sort of mechanical issues do you mean?
as for ditching the mail order tune...i just want to get it to the point where i can actually drive it to a dyno. patrick, what sort of mechanical issues do you mean?
__________________
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2022 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 S&B CAI, Corsa catback.
2023 Corvette 3LT Z51 soon to be modified.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2022 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 S&B CAI, Corsa catback.
2023 Corvette 3LT Z51 soon to be modified.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
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Contact Alvin at pcm4less.com, he can do you a really good mail order tune. He done my car. I have the ms3 cam, ported ls6 heads, bolt-ons, lt's, tsp true duals, 3800 stall,4.10 gears. My car drives perfect with no bucking or surging. I didn't have to modify the throttle body hole or anything.
Contact Alvin at pcm4less.com, he can do you a really good mail order tune. He done my car. I have the ms3 cam, ported ls6 heads, bolt-ons, lt's, tsp true duals, 3800 stall,4.10 gears. My car drives perfect with no bucking or surging. I didn't have to modify the throttle body hole or anything.
__________________
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2022 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 S&B CAI, Corsa catback.
2023 Corvette 3LT Z51 soon to be modified.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2022 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 S&B CAI, Corsa catback.
2023 Corvette 3LT Z51 soon to be modified.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
No offense to the guys at TSP but my mail order tune was no where close. Ed pulled out an additional 78rwhp and made it driveable. Get a dyno tune and problem solved... If everything else is correct as stated above.
Thread Starter
TECH Apprentice
iTrader: (3)
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 312
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From: Hollidaysburg, PA
when you say street tune, are you talking about the TB adjustments and verifying that all the sensors are working properly, and there are no vac/exhaust leaks?
We do 15-20 mail-order tunes a week with great results. As expected, you can't always get the tune 100% perfect with a mail-order tune. But, that's why we have one year of free updates with our tunes. Trevor
Texas Speed & Performance
__________________
VE tables, airflow tables, throttle cracker and follower tables, spark tables all have to be tweaked to give the motor what it wants. The short term fuel trims need to be in the single digits at all times. It takes hours of logging to do it right.
__________________
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2022 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 S&B CAI, Corsa catback.
2023 Corvette 3LT Z51 soon to be modified.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2022 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 S&B CAI, Corsa catback.
2023 Corvette 3LT Z51 soon to be modified.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
Thread Starter
TECH Apprentice
iTrader: (3)
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 312
Likes: 0
From: Hollidaysburg, PA
trevor -- is this something you guys could get close with the MO tune?
if not, does anyone know of a shop in pennsylvania that can do it? i've heard very good things about mike and rapid motorsports.
if not, does anyone know of a shop in pennsylvania that can do it? i've heard very good things about mike and rapid motorsports.
Last edited by squall01; Nov 15, 2007 at 07:33 AM. Reason: added stuff
Hi Bill,
Patrick is correct. You need to make sure the idle tuning is done first and this can take the most time. Throttle position, IAC counts, RAF differ from car to car so a mail order tune won't get you 100% correct. It's a guessing game. TSP will get you close but to get it 100% dialed in, you will need to get it to a tuner. With a cam that size, sometimes it's better to just go SD. Also, in PA we don't have a sniffer only OBDII scanning which makes it easy
Mikey
Patrick is correct. You need to make sure the idle tuning is done first and this can take the most time. Throttle position, IAC counts, RAF differ from car to car so a mail order tune won't get you 100% correct. It's a guessing game. TSP will get you close but to get it 100% dialed in, you will need to get it to a tuner. With a cam that size, sometimes it's better to just go SD. Also, in PA we don't have a sniffer only OBDII scanning which makes it easy
Mikey
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 12
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From: Eastern NC
i got pretty much the same setup as bill but with a 12-bolt 4.10's. i know i need new 02 sensors. recommend any, i was thinking about vette ones instead of buying extensions. also how much leaner would my car run with an ls6 intake instead of stock. MO tune by TSP has aftermarket intake programmed. or that is what they say.