Stage I Heads & Stage II Heads Dyno Results & Track Results are in
02-03-2003, 01:11 PM
#1
TECH Resident
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Mentor, Ohio
Posts: 777
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Stage I Heads & Stage II Heads Dyno Results & Track Results are in First off, dynos are tuning tools not the end-all-be-all,ok! Many of the ARE H/C packages dyno just over 400RWHP(supposedly considerably less then some other shops)BUT ARE's H/C car sure run the numbers at the track!
I also think your ETS/MPH are very misleading! Its impossible or damn near impossible to launch at 5000 RPM on Kumho street tires and expect to get a somewhat decent pass. If I launched at 5000 on my F1s(hell even nittos)I would be damn lucky to not hit the wall while shifting into 3rd just after the 60ft and be buring off all my tread to the 1000ft mark!
I would like to see someone with a stock LS1 M6 dump the clutch at 5000rpm on their street tires(not drag radials) and not blaze off their tires. Your comparision of ETs/mph of the two packages is irrelevant here. WHY??? Because the conditions of what you tested aren't the same. You can't launch a car at 3500rpm and say it ran great, then launch the car at 5000rpm and say it ran poorly. You are comparing apples to oranges here. Put slicks on the car and run the same driver, same shift points(as near as possible), same tires(perferrable slicks), same everything....To do this you would have to run once, and immediately swap packages(within minutes, which is impossible but needed because the weather conditions could change within minutes)and then go run again after the complete powertrain has cooled to the same temperature as the first run. AND the same launch RPM and technique.
I also think your ETS/MPH are very misleading! Its impossible or damn near impossible to launch at 5000 RPM on Kumho street tires and expect to get a somewhat decent pass. If I launched at 5000 on my F1s(hell even nittos)I would be damn lucky to not hit the wall while shifting into 3rd just after the 60ft and be buring off all my tread to the 1000ft mark!
I would like to see someone with a stock LS1 M6 dump the clutch at 5000rpm on their street tires(not drag radials) and not blaze off their tires. Your comparision of ETs/mph of the two packages is irrelevant here. WHY??? Because the conditions of what you tested aren't the same. You can't launch a car at 3500rpm and say it ran great, then launch the car at 5000rpm and say it ran poorly. You are comparing apples to oranges here. Put slicks on the car and run the same driver, same shift points(as near as possible), same tires(perferrable slicks), same everything....To do this you would have to run once, and immediately swap packages(within minutes, which is impossible but needed because the weather conditions could change within minutes)and then go run again after the complete powertrain has cooled to the same temperature as the first run. AND the same launch RPM and technique.
02-03-2003, 01:34 PM
#2
On The Tree
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Vegas
Posts: 166
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Stage I Heads & Stage II Heads Dyno Results & Track Results are in </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by 99MONGOOSE:
<strong>Its impossible or damn near impossible to launch at 5000 RPM on Kumho street tires and expect to get a somewhat decent pass.
....
I would like to see someone with a stock LS1 M6 dump the clutch at 5000rpm on their street tires(not drag radials) and not blaze off their tires. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Here is the video of my 5000 rpm dump on Kuhmo MX street tires: http://www.lvfbody.com/clubvideos.as...n-Club_Members
Type in your initials and click on the botton and you will see it.
The condition between stage I and stage II runs are very identical. The difference in the temp is about 10 degrees around similiar time of the day. The tires are the same Kuhmo MX. The track for both days were amazingly sticky. With stage I heads. I kept the tire pressure at 30psi and slowly worked my way up from 2500rpm to 3500rpm untill they shut down the track. I was still bogging at 3500rpm. They closed the track before I could launch at 4000 rpm.
With stage II heads. I dropped the tire down to 20psi and launched at 4000 rpm, I was still bogging. SO I started launching at 5000 rpm... You can see the video for yourself. I was not spinning the tires with 5000 rpm drop. Kuhmo tires are sticky!
The technique is very simple for all runs: rev up to 3500/4000/5000 rpm, dump the clutch, and granny shifting at 6500 rpm. I am new to this sport and I am not quick, but I am pretty consistant on the runs. My 60' on all these runs are 1.9xx.
<strong>Its impossible or damn near impossible to launch at 5000 RPM on Kumho street tires and expect to get a somewhat decent pass.
....
I would like to see someone with a stock LS1 M6 dump the clutch at 5000rpm on their street tires(not drag radials) and not blaze off their tires. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Here is the video of my 5000 rpm dump on Kuhmo MX street tires: http://www.lvfbody.com/clubvideos.as...n-Club_Members
Type in your initials and click on the botton and you will see it.
The condition between stage I and stage II runs are very identical. The difference in the temp is about 10 degrees around similiar time of the day. The tires are the same Kuhmo MX. The track for both days were amazingly sticky. With stage I heads. I kept the tire pressure at 30psi and slowly worked my way up from 2500rpm to 3500rpm untill they shut down the track. I was still bogging at 3500rpm. They closed the track before I could launch at 4000 rpm.
With stage II heads. I dropped the tire down to 20psi and launched at 4000 rpm, I was still bogging. SO I started launching at 5000 rpm... You can see the video for yourself. I was not spinning the tires with 5000 rpm drop. Kuhmo tires are sticky!
The technique is very simple for all runs: rev up to 3500/4000/5000 rpm, dump the clutch, and granny shifting at 6500 rpm. I am new to this sport and I am not quick, but I am pretty consistant on the runs. My 60' on all these runs are 1.9xx.
02-03-2003, 02:52 PM
#3
TECH Addict
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Fort Worth,TX
Posts: 2,340
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Stage I Heads & Stage II Heads Dyno Results & Track Results are in Thanks for the info.That is really wierd.I thought you would of gained.Were you getting any false knock or do you have bad o2 sensors?I am sure a bigger cam will benefit from the bigger head but you still should of gained.Good luck in sorting out the problem.
02-03-2003, 03:01 PM
#4
On The Tree
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Vegas
Posts: 166
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Stage I Heads & Stage II Heads Dyno Results & Track Results are in </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by AlonzoVersion 1.0:
<strong> Thanks for the info.That is really wierd.I thought you would of gained.Were you getting any false knock or do you have bad o2 sensors?I am sure a bigger cam will benefit from the bigger head but you still should of gained.Good luck in sorting out the problem. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thanks, I definitely don't think the heads are bad or the cam is too small. It has being well documented on the internet that MMS heads with MMS 224 cam makes around 410 to 425 rwhp. I think it may be my car. I am thinking about doing the following:
1. Compression check.
2. Add LS6 intake and cut-out.
3. Check my cats, anybody know how to check the cats to see if they are clogged?
4. Auto Tap for any strange readings. I know my a/f ratio is at 12.7 all the way to redline. What data do you think I should check for?
<strong> Thanks for the info.That is really wierd.I thought you would of gained.Were you getting any false knock or do you have bad o2 sensors?I am sure a bigger cam will benefit from the bigger head but you still should of gained.Good luck in sorting out the problem. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thanks, I definitely don't think the heads are bad or the cam is too small. It has being well documented on the internet that MMS heads with MMS 224 cam makes around 410 to 425 rwhp. I think it may be my car. I am thinking about doing the following:
1. Compression check.
2. Add LS6 intake and cut-out.
3. Check my cats, anybody know how to check the cats to see if they are clogged?
4. Auto Tap for any strange readings. I know my a/f ratio is at 12.7 all the way to redline. What data do you think I should check for?
02-03-2003, 04:42 PM
#6
On The Tree
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Vegas
Posts: 166
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Stage I Heads & Stage II Heads Dyno Results & Track Results are in </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Viper:
<strong> Which video is yours? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Strange, it should take you directly to the video. Sounds like it took you to the list of videos. I will be in the Non-members directory and my file name should be something like "WillsVette1261.mpg"
<strong> Which video is yours? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Strange, it should take you directly to the video. Sounds like it took you to the list of videos. I will be in the Non-members directory and my file name should be something like "WillsVette1261.mpg"
02-03-2003, 04:55 PM
#7
Launching!
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Valencia, CA
Posts: 227
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Stage I Heads & Stage II Heads Dyno Results & Track Results are in I had posted a bunch of info on a previous thread for you, but I didn't hear back. Check it out and let me know if there is anything I can do.
Am I correct to assume that these heads were purchased used??
If so, what # is stamped in the cylinder head next to our logo?
Am I correct to assume that these heads were purchased used??
If so, what # is stamped in the cylinder head next to our logo?
Trending Topics
02-03-2003, 05:56 PM
#8
On The Tree
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Vegas
Posts: 166
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Stage I Heads & Stage II Heads Dyno Results & Track Results are in </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Mike Morgan:
<strong> I had posted a bunch of info on a previous thread for you, but I didn't hear back. Check it out and let me know if there is anything I can do.
Am I correct to assume that these heads were purchased used??
If so, what # is stamped in the cylinder head next to our logo? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thank you, I just checked the previous post and it all makes sense now. I will do as you said and I am sure the numbers will improve. Thanks
<strong> I had posted a bunch of info on a previous thread for you, but I didn't hear back. Check it out and let me know if there is anything I can do.
Am I correct to assume that these heads were purchased used??
If so, what # is stamped in the cylinder head next to our logo? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thank you, I just checked the previous post and it all makes sense now. I will do as you said and I am sure the numbers will improve. Thanks
02-03-2003, 07:01 PM
#9
Launching!
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Clackamas, Or
Posts: 216
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Stage I Heads & Stage II Heads Dyno Results & Track Results are in Ditch the cats, and add the ls6 intake and you will see a big increase in power!! Check out what an ls6 intake did for me...
https://ls1tech.com/ubb/ultimatebb.p...;f=24;t=006386
https://ls1tech.com/ubb/ultimatebb.p...;f=24;t=006386
02-04-2003, 12:17 AM
#10
On The Tree
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Vegas
Posts: 166
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Stage I Heads & Stage II Heads Dyno Results & Track Results are in Stage I heads: A&A Corvette Specialties Stage I Heads
https://www.aandacorvette.com/cart/s...p?MainCatID=10
"These cost efficient cylinder heads feature REV stainles 2.02 intake and 1.57 exh valves. REV springs ( single or dual) titanium retainers , hardened steel spring seats and new seals. The bowls are ported and hand blended into the street-strip valve job and are resurfaced for increased compression. Actual runner size is not enlarged, making this an excellent street head. These are the heads I run on my own car . I have had these low cost heads make 410 RWHP with a less than optimum camshaft. Big performance without paying for the big name."
Stage II Heads: Morgan Motorsports Stage II Heads.
http://www.mmsracing.com/store.cgi?&...=eng&P=MMS5352
"MMS Stage II heads are ideal for stock displacement applications. When equipped with an MMS camshaft gains up to 100 HP are easily attainable. Our years of experience and testing have provided us with the best combination of performance price and driveability. All heads are complete competition ported on both the intake and exhaust. From there we replace the stock vavles with hi quality stainless steel valves. All heads are valvejobbed and hand finished for the highest degree of detail possible. Our intake ports flow 35% better than stock and maintain excellent port velocity. You may add your own springs and retainers or add on the MMS recommended springs package for our camshafts. "
The heads are the only change. Here are the list of bolt-ons/Mods I have:
Vararam Air Filter box/system. Plastic MAF Ends. A&A Air Bridge. Smooth Coupler. RK Sport Long Tube Headers. A&A Hight Flow Cats. A&A X-pipe. A&A Exhaust Mod. Morgan Motorsports CAM: 224/224 .566/.566 114 LSA. Dyno Tuning for the Stage I heads.
Parts that I have not get to:
Intake is still LS1, not LS6.
Exhaust still stock with A&A exhaust mod.
No under drive pulley, have stereo system.
Nothing was changed except for the heads and slight adjustments to the PCM tuning to compensate for the Stage II heads. Dyno Results:
With Stage I Heads: 383RWHP/362TQ. A/F ratio is around 12.9
With Stage II Heads: 379RWHP/360TQ. A/F ratio is around 12.7
Now the Track Time, both with Kuhmo Street Tires:
With Stage I Heads: 12.61@113, launched at 3500rpm
With Stage II Heads: 12.53@109, launched at 5000rpm <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="gr_eek2.gif" />
From what I have seen from this forum and other ls1 forums, almost every body with this MMS Heads/Cam combo got around 415 rwhp or so. Few people has commented on that my 224 cam may be too small for stage II heads. It's hard for me to believe that because soo many people with the exact same combo are getting over 400 rwhp. The Dyno is done by the Local DynoJet shop that does dyno work for the NASCAR guys when they come into town. They are pretty reputable.
It really baffles me that I did not gain any HP at all from MMS Stage II Heads. I am installing LS6 intake and Cut Outs soon. I will let you know what happens next. I may also do a compression test to see if my bottom end is giving out.
<small>[ February 03, 2003, 12:48 PM: Message edited by: benelliwang ]</small>
https://www.aandacorvette.com/cart/s...p?MainCatID=10
"These cost efficient cylinder heads feature REV stainles 2.02 intake and 1.57 exh valves. REV springs ( single or dual) titanium retainers , hardened steel spring seats and new seals. The bowls are ported and hand blended into the street-strip valve job and are resurfaced for increased compression. Actual runner size is not enlarged, making this an excellent street head. These are the heads I run on my own car . I have had these low cost heads make 410 RWHP with a less than optimum camshaft. Big performance without paying for the big name."
Stage II Heads: Morgan Motorsports Stage II Heads.
http://www.mmsracing.com/store.cgi?&...=eng&P=MMS5352
"MMS Stage II heads are ideal for stock displacement applications. When equipped with an MMS camshaft gains up to 100 HP are easily attainable. Our years of experience and testing have provided us with the best combination of performance price and driveability. All heads are complete competition ported on both the intake and exhaust. From there we replace the stock vavles with hi quality stainless steel valves. All heads are valvejobbed and hand finished for the highest degree of detail possible. Our intake ports flow 35% better than stock and maintain excellent port velocity. You may add your own springs and retainers or add on the MMS recommended springs package for our camshafts. "
The heads are the only change. Here are the list of bolt-ons/Mods I have:
Vararam Air Filter box/system. Plastic MAF Ends. A&A Air Bridge. Smooth Coupler. RK Sport Long Tube Headers. A&A Hight Flow Cats. A&A X-pipe. A&A Exhaust Mod. Morgan Motorsports CAM: 224/224 .566/.566 114 LSA. Dyno Tuning for the Stage I heads.
Parts that I have not get to:
Intake is still LS1, not LS6.
Exhaust still stock with A&A exhaust mod.
No under drive pulley, have stereo system.
Nothing was changed except for the heads and slight adjustments to the PCM tuning to compensate for the Stage II heads. Dyno Results:
With Stage I Heads: 383RWHP/362TQ. A/F ratio is around 12.9
With Stage II Heads: 379RWHP/360TQ. A/F ratio is around 12.7
Now the Track Time, both with Kuhmo Street Tires:
With Stage I Heads: 12.61@113, launched at 3500rpm
With Stage II Heads: 12.53@109, launched at 5000rpm <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="gr_eek2.gif" />
From what I have seen from this forum and other ls1 forums, almost every body with this MMS Heads/Cam combo got around 415 rwhp or so. Few people has commented on that my 224 cam may be too small for stage II heads. It's hard for me to believe that because soo many people with the exact same combo are getting over 400 rwhp. The Dyno is done by the Local DynoJet shop that does dyno work for the NASCAR guys when they come into town. They are pretty reputable.
It really baffles me that I did not gain any HP at all from MMS Stage II Heads. I am installing LS6 intake and Cut Outs soon. I will let you know what happens next. I may also do a compression test to see if my bottom end is giving out.
<small>[ February 03, 2003, 12:48 PM: Message edited by: benelliwang ]</small>
02-04-2003, 12:28 AM
#11
TECH Junkie
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 3,604
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Stage I Heads & Stage II Heads Dyno Results & Track Results are in The terms "Stage 1" and "Stage 2" dont mean a lot between different shops. In addition, some shops heads need tons of exhaust duration to make up for a bad port, or vice versa. You really should have had both heads flow tested on the same bench for comparison.
I had my ARE's flowtested against my GTP's to make sure I was doing the right thing, and it confirmed what I thought.
I had my ARE's flowtested against my GTP's to make sure I was doing the right thing, and it confirmed what I thought.
02-04-2003, 12:42 AM
#12
On The Tree
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Vegas
Posts: 166
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Stage I Heads & Stage II Heads Dyno Results & Track Results are in </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by jmX:
<strong> The terms "Stage 1" and "Stage 2" dont mean a lot between different shops. In addition, some shops heads need tons of exhaust duration to make up for a bad port, or vice versa. You really should have had both heads flow tested on the same bench for comparison.
I had my ARE's flowtested against my GTP's to make sure I was doing the right thing, and it confirmed what I thought. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, please keep in mind that A&A Stage I are NOT ported & polished heads. It consists of a valve job with bigger valves and ported & blended bowls only. So, the intake and exhaust runners are completely stock. Morgan heads, on the other hand, are ported and polished all the way just like every other Stage I/II heads.
<strong> The terms "Stage 1" and "Stage 2" dont mean a lot between different shops. In addition, some shops heads need tons of exhaust duration to make up for a bad port, or vice versa. You really should have had both heads flow tested on the same bench for comparison.
I had my ARE's flowtested against my GTP's to make sure I was doing the right thing, and it confirmed what I thought. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, please keep in mind that A&A Stage I are NOT ported & polished heads. It consists of a valve job with bigger valves and ported & blended bowls only. So, the intake and exhaust runners are completely stock. Morgan heads, on the other hand, are ported and polished all the way just like every other Stage I/II heads.
02-04-2003, 10:05 AM
#13
Staging Lane
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Cedar Rapids,IA
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Stage I Heads & Stage II Heads Dyno Results & Track Results are in If you bought them used. Make sure they are true MMS heads. Alot of people try to sell bogus heads on the internet.
JAY
Got burned once!
JAY
Got burned once!
