MAJOR problem need advice
Thread Starter
Teching In
Joined: Mar 2002
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From: H-Town
MAJOR problem need advice Well I just finished my h/c install.
Rundown of parts
TEA stage 2 5.3 heads
B1 cam
7.4 hardened pushrods
Rollmaster double chain
MACs
gaskets, headbolts, misc.
I followed JMXs awesome instructions (really these are first rate). I torqued everything to specification. I made sure that I had the cam dots lined up perfectly. I did the motor spin check listed in the instructions just fine. Well I went to start up this is what happened. At first the instructions say spin motor for 4 seconds with coil pack harness disconnected. OK, motor spins over, and sounds like it wants to start. Cool. I am confident this thing is about to fire up. I reconnect the coil pack harness and turn the motor over for a few seconds. Damn, it doesn't start. I try again and it sounds like the motor is turning over, when after 1 second it just sounds as if the starter is only spinning. This sucks. I get underneath the car again, and check the crank bolt to manually check motor will turn. It does. Well I go try to start again. This time it sounds like the motor is turning over again when BAM. The motor siezed. S-U-C-K-S. What did I do wrong? I am resigned to the fact that I need to pull the cam back out at least. Does it sound like stuff got damaged? Any advice would be much appreciated. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="gr_sad.gif" />
<small>[ February 05, 2003, 01:23 AM: Message edited by: Jerome99Z ]</small>
Rundown of parts
TEA stage 2 5.3 heads
B1 cam
7.4 hardened pushrods
Rollmaster double chain
MACs
gaskets, headbolts, misc.
I followed JMXs awesome instructions (really these are first rate). I torqued everything to specification. I made sure that I had the cam dots lined up perfectly. I did the motor spin check listed in the instructions just fine. Well I went to start up this is what happened. At first the instructions say spin motor for 4 seconds with coil pack harness disconnected. OK, motor spins over, and sounds like it wants to start. Cool. I am confident this thing is about to fire up. I reconnect the coil pack harness and turn the motor over for a few seconds. Damn, it doesn't start. I try again and it sounds like the motor is turning over, when after 1 second it just sounds as if the starter is only spinning. This sucks. I get underneath the car again, and check the crank bolt to manually check motor will turn. It does. Well I go try to start again. This time it sounds like the motor is turning over again when BAM. The motor siezed. S-U-C-K-S. What did I do wrong? I am resigned to the fact that I need to pull the cam back out at least. Does it sound like stuff got damaged? Any advice would be much appreciated. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="gr_sad.gif" />
<small>[ February 05, 2003, 01:23 AM: Message edited by: Jerome99Z ]</small>
Re: MAJOR problem need advice If the motor will not turn by hand, it is prolly mechanical. Sounds like your starter may be mounted wrong. That would be why you starter spun freely and it is possibly hung up on the flywheel/flexplate now making the motor impossible to turn over. If your flywheel can't turn, your motor cant either (bolted to the crank).
Thread Starter
Teching In
Joined: Mar 2002
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From: H-Town
Re: MAJOR problem need advice Thanks Todd for the reply. I actually did not remove the starter during the install. Do you think this could still be the case? If it was just the starter I would be really happy, but I don't know how it would have got messed up if I didn't remove it.
Re: MAJOR problem need advice Well...prolly not the starter then. Pull the plugs out and see if it will turn over. Could just be excess pressure due to compression and the fuel you shot in there.
I always recommend pulling the fuel pump fuse for turning over and priming the motor. The engine will not start without fuel, and you won't foul your plugs or risk any hydrolock issues either. It's so simple to just pull the pump fuse. I would email JMX and suggest this as a change to the procedures IMO.
Todd
I always recommend pulling the fuel pump fuse for turning over and priming the motor. The engine will not start without fuel, and you won't foul your plugs or risk any hydrolock issues either. It's so simple to just pull the pump fuse. I would email JMX and suggest this as a change to the procedures IMO.
Todd
Re: MAJOR problem need advice Before you do anything rash, step back from the car and make a list of things to check.
A 'BAM' could also be a broken starter. I broke a starter a few years ago, busted one of the tabs that a bolt goes thru. Don't even try running the car with a broken tab. Check that.
I think before that I would check the plugs. If you dropped a valve or had PtoV contact you might see evidence of smashed electrode tips.
Open up the oil filler cap when cranking the motor to make sure you still have a connected timing chain.
A 'BAM' could also be a broken starter. I broke a starter a few years ago, busted one of the tabs that a bolt goes thru. Don't even try running the car with a broken tab. Check that.
I think before that I would check the plugs. If you dropped a valve or had PtoV contact you might see evidence of smashed electrode tips.
Open up the oil filler cap when cranking the motor to make sure you still have a connected timing chain.
Thread Starter
Teching In
Joined: Mar 2002
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From: H-Town
Re: MAJOR problem need advice When the motor seized it wasn't so much a tremendous noise as it was just the sound of the motor coming to a halt. When your starter broke John did it sound like a huge noise? I will pull the plugs when I get home to see if there is anything noticeable.
Re: MAJOR problem need advice It went 'KA-bang.'
Drop the starter down, pull the plugs, and see if you can rotate the motor with a breaker bar. If the rockers don't move (oil filler cap) then you broke a timing chain or something. If the motor won't turn that's not good.
Drop the starter down, pull the plugs, and see if you can rotate the motor with a breaker bar. If the rockers don't move (oil filler cap) then you broke a timing chain or something. If the motor won't turn that's not good.
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Staging Lane
Joined: Sep 2002
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From: Whitby,On
Re: MAJOR problem need advice I have seen this before,when installing the double chain some guys have made the mistake installing the lower gear in the wrong place because of the degree positions and bend the valves after rotating the engine, this is why your engine would turn over so fast(no comp)and you would think it was just the starter.The engine not turning over sounds like a dropped valve! Hopefully this is not the case but this would definitly be a place to look. Good Luck ! Wade Agostino Racing Engines
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Verdad Gallardo Thread Starter
Teching In
Joined: Mar 2002
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From: H-Town
Re: MAJOR problem need advice When I installed the lower gear I made double sure that the key was installed to where the dot was on the lower gear. Also when I did the "spin test" would I have noticed this if the gear was somehow installed incorrectly? I spun the motor over at least 6 times manually before trying to start and the motor was turning over fine at that point.
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,043
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From: Texas and Qatar
Re: MAJOR problem need advice Along with what Wade said, there are TWO dots on the lower timing chain gear, the dot next to the keyway (0 degrees advance) it identifies which keyway is what, the keyway has no correlation to TDC except that its in about the 2:30 position at actual TDC. Don't set the camshaft timing dot to this keyway dot, its easy to confuse the two. The correct TDC mark is the one closest to the actual gears where the chain rides. You can verify TDC by pulling out the #1 spark plug and making sure the piston is all the way up in the cylinder.
Edit:
I found a pic of a rollmaster here, maybe this will help you to see what Wade meant. This particular engine needed +2 advance, so the keyway mark is one position further down than it would be at 0 advance. Note that when you change the advance/retard, you cannot go by the original timing mark on the crank gear anyways - that changes as well and should be remarked to correct TDC.
<img src="http://www.jperacing.com/rollmaster.jpg" alt=" - " />
<small>[ February 05, 2003, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: -Joseph- ]</small>
Edit:
I found a pic of a rollmaster here, maybe this will help you to see what Wade meant. This particular engine needed +2 advance, so the keyway mark is one position further down than it would be at 0 advance. Note that when you change the advance/retard, you cannot go by the original timing mark on the crank gear anyways - that changes as well and should be remarked to correct TDC.
<img src="http://www.jperacing.com/rollmaster.jpg" alt=" - " />
<small>[ February 05, 2003, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: -Joseph- ]</small>
Thread Starter
Teching In
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From: H-Town
Re: MAJOR problem need advice WOW. I think Wade and Joseph may have nailed it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="gr_sad.gif" /> . I don't recall a second dot on the lower gear so this sounds like a likely culprit. So as Wade explained should I expect a dropped valve? What would be the consequences of this? A repair of the heads I would guess, but anything else? Since the motor wasn't running, if it dropped a valve would the block still be OK?
On The Tree
Joined: Jun 2002
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From: San Diego
Re: MAJOR problem need advice I don't see you dropping a valve, but i do see you just smacking the valves to the pistons. Assuming you didn't hit them hard enough, the valves may need to be replaces, and the valve seats may need to be remachined.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
12 Second Club
Joined: Jan 2003
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From: Houston, TX
Re: MAJOR problem need advice I read the instructions on Jerome99Z's Rollmaster TC, and they are not very clear. If I had not seen John and WadeC5s posts, I think I would have installed the crank gear wrong.
Thread Starter
Teching In
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From: H-Town
Re: MAJOR problem need advice Update: I pulled the heads and saw the damage. The intake valves are bent and the pistons have eyelash marks on them. Except for one piston. This is what caused the engine to sieze. A valve broke off and embedded itself into the center of the piston. It looked like one of those old sci-fi pictures of a UFO crashing into the ground. What should I do now? This piston needs replacing. Where can I buy just one stock piston? Do I need to pull motor to do this? More advice is requested.
Re: MAJOR problem need advice Now would be the perfect time to throw in a good set of forged pistons, and ARP bolts. I wouldn't mess around with buying one new piston. Just my opinion.
TECH Veteran
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,055
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From: Hartsdale, NY
Re: MAJOR problem need advice I suggest that you pull the motor and replace ALL the pistons and rings...then have the heads re-worked at a machine shop ...then install it back together....
Make sure the pistons weigh approximately the same....
Sorry!
Make sure the pistons weigh approximately the same....
Sorry!
TECH Fanatic
Joined: Dec 2002
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From: Bring it........ b*tch
Re: MAJOR problem need advice Yeah, don't mess around with trying to replace just one piston. You're going to need to pull the motor now anyhow, so while it's out you might as well build a forged bottom end, or atleast just do the forged pistons/rings.
If it was me, and I had the money, I'd probably just build a stroker bottom end with a Lunati kit, fix the heads and put it back together.
Good luck! Sorry man, that sucks dude. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="gr_sad.gif" />
If it was me, and I had the money, I'd probably just build a stroker bottom end with a Lunati kit, fix the heads and put it back together.
Good luck! Sorry man, that sucks dude. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="gr_sad.gif" />
Staging Lane
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From: Whitby,On
Re: MAJOR problem need advice We offer what we call a steet eliminator 346 with forged pistons ARP rod bolts you can find this on our web sight,www.agostino-racing.com Wade Agostino Racing
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From: Bring it........ b*tch
Re: MAJOR problem need advice Hey JMX,
I've read over your install page thoroughly a couple times myself, and I was thinking to alleviate such an occurance from happening again from someone whom is inexperienced maybe you could go through the procedure of installing the bottom crank gear on a double roller set. It seems most people are going this route now anyhow. Rollmaster does provide some instructions, but they are a little ambiguous and I could see how this could happen to someone who is inexperienced.
Just a suggestion - your page is awesome how it is though. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
I've read over your install page thoroughly a couple times myself, and I was thinking to alleviate such an occurance from happening again from someone whom is inexperienced maybe you could go through the procedure of installing the bottom crank gear on a double roller set. It seems most people are going this route now anyhow. Rollmaster does provide some instructions, but they are a little ambiguous and I could see how this could happen to someone who is inexperienced.
Just a suggestion - your page is awesome how it is though. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />