had enough of low end cam surge
03-10-2008, 09:40 PM
#41
TECH Regular
Thread Starter
iTrader: (9)
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Hellertown, PA
Posts: 409
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
yeah i'd def like to get some tuner's advise and santiago ls1howto.com states.....
NOTE: This is a very rough estimation of drivability/power/idle quality. No chart this basic could possibly detail all the differences between 2 similar cams, so use it only as a rough guide
that doesn't mean the chart is accurate i've seen cams way bigger than mine fit stock block and heads
NOTE: This is a very rough estimation of drivability/power/idle quality. No chart this basic could possibly detail all the differences between 2 similar cams, so use it only as a rough guide
that doesn't mean the chart is accurate i've seen cams way bigger than mine fit stock block and heads
03-10-2008, 09:52 PM
#42
TECH Resident
iTrader: (28)
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: norcal
Posts: 987
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
yeah i'd def like to get some tuner's advise and santiago ls1howto.com states.....
NOTE: This is a very rough estimation of drivability/power/idle quality. No chart this basic could possibly detail all the differences between 2 similar cams, so use it only as a rough guide
that doesn't mean the chart is accurate i've seen cams way bigger than mine fit stock block and heads
NOTE: This is a very rough estimation of drivability/power/idle quality. No chart this basic could possibly detail all the differences between 2 similar cams, so use it only as a rough guide
that doesn't mean the chart is accurate i've seen cams way bigger than mine fit stock block and heads
i dont personally how bad the op's car bucks but i would expect a lil since its a big cam.
03-10-2008, 10:30 PM
#43
TECH Addict
iTrader: (6)
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 2,099
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Damn. After reading the replies in this thread I'm glad I've researched and learned my own tuning over the past 7 years 
I have what most would consider a "monstrously-large" cam in the MS4 with ported LS6 heads and I have almost 0 bucking between 1200 and 2000 rpm's in 1st, 2nd, or 3rd gears
I used Edit for 6 years and now use EFILive and I have NOT even done the RAFIG procedure. I have perfect idle/cold-start/hot-start/street-manners.
I get 16.4 mpg mostly city with some highway driving (~30 mpg low-rpm steady-highway) . . . and I keep my engine on FULL BOIL at all times (I shift at 3500 and cruise at 3000 everywhere with numerous trips to 7000 on every tank
)
I'm gonna post my tune in the pcm section tomorrow or wednesday for anyone that wants to use it as a reference point
I have what most would consider a "monstrously-large" cam in the MS4 with ported LS6 heads and I have almost 0 bucking between 1200 and 2000 rpm's in 1st, 2nd, or 3rd gears
I used Edit for 6 years and now use EFILive and I have NOT even done the RAFIG procedure. I have perfect idle/cold-start/hot-start/street-manners.
I get 16.4 mpg mostly city with some highway driving (~30 mpg low-rpm steady-highway) . . . and I keep my engine on FULL BOIL at all times (I shift at 3500 and cruise at 3000 everywhere with numerous trips to 7000 on every tank
)I'm gonna post my tune in the pcm section tomorrow or wednesday for anyone that wants to use it as a reference point
03-10-2008, 10:50 PM
#44
11 Second Club
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Aiken, SC
Posts: 623
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The 224/224 was also considered a huge cam at one point. I think the OP should expect a little bucking under a very low load.
But he said he can't even use 5th gear until 60 mph. With 3.42's thats 2000rpm.
My tune is pretty fuxxored right now because it has the wrong intake, and is running pig rich on idle. I can still use 5th after about 35mph. I don't know the exact specs on my cam but it is probably pretty close to the torquer 2.
At any rate, there is improvement to be had here
But he said he can't even use 5th gear until 60 mph. With 3.42's thats 2000rpm.
My tune is pretty fuxxored right now because it has the wrong intake, and is running pig rich on idle. I can still use 5th after about 35mph. I don't know the exact specs on my cam but it is probably pretty close to the torquer 2.
At any rate, there is improvement to be had here
03-11-2008, 05:24 AM
#45
TECH Regular
Thread Starter
iTrader: (9)
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Hellertown, PA
Posts: 409
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The 224/224 was also considered a huge cam at one point. I think the OP should expect a little bucking under a very low load.
But he said he can't even use 5th gear until 60 mph. With 3.42's thats 2000rpm.
My tune is pretty fuxxored right now because it has the wrong intake, and is running pig rich on idle. I can still use 5th after about 35mph. I don't know the exact specs on my cam but it is probably pretty close to the torquer 2.
At any rate, there is improvement to be had here
But he said he can't even use 5th gear until 60 mph. With 3.42's thats 2000rpm.
My tune is pretty fuxxored right now because it has the wrong intake, and is running pig rich on idle. I can still use 5th after about 35mph. I don't know the exact specs on my cam but it is probably pretty close to the torquer 2.
At any rate, there is improvement to be had here
also like i said it does it in any gear... if i just go threw a parking lot in 1st gear it does it also. i have to ride the clutch and then keep working the clutch instead of just gliding threw the parking lot... very annoying
03-11-2008, 06:06 AM
#46
TECH Resident
iTrader: (21)
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 820
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i gotta do the same thing with my car, the low end surging is pretty bad especially with under 1500 RPM's around 20MPH or less. I bet it's mostly since I have the stock 2.73's in the rear but I love the gas mileage I get and not ready to leave it behind yet. I have HPTuners but haven't had much time to get into it since I'm always in the air. Been doing a lot of research here in the desert though so I may play with it when I get home.
You guys gotta keep in mind though that getting a perfect tune takes a looong time. Car manufacturers can spend months or years to get it right, granted they're building an entire tune, but with a not as experienced tuner tuning your car for a few hours he's probably not going to get every detail right. I know we all want the best for our cars but sometimes it's hard to find the best. I won't get pissed off at a tuner for not being able to get the surge out, I would tell him it's possible with more tweaking and would try to get him to keep working on it, but if in the end it's not done I don't blame him. They work on soooo many engine combinations it can be challenging. That's why I have my own software, have a rough mail order tune that has me in a close ballpark, and plan to learn and tweak the parameters myself. so if I can't get it right all I can do is better myself and keep trying.
You guys gotta keep in mind though that getting a perfect tune takes a looong time. Car manufacturers can spend months or years to get it right, granted they're building an entire tune, but with a not as experienced tuner tuning your car for a few hours he's probably not going to get every detail right. I know we all want the best for our cars but sometimes it's hard to find the best. I won't get pissed off at a tuner for not being able to get the surge out, I would tell him it's possible with more tweaking and would try to get him to keep working on it, but if in the end it's not done I don't blame him. They work on soooo many engine combinations it can be challenging. That's why I have my own software, have a rough mail order tune that has me in a close ballpark, and plan to learn and tweak the parameters myself. so if I can't get it right all I can do is better myself and keep trying.
03-11-2008, 06:25 AM
#47
TECH Regular
Thread Starter
iTrader: (9)
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Hellertown, PA
Posts: 409
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
camaroguy i understand that tuners only work on it a few hours and dont have much time to get it right but they should also know what they are doing and how to work out a surge issue considering about 90% of cams probly have surge. other than the surge i was really happy with the tune but i just can't see spending over 400 dollars and not being happy with driving the car. maybe i should get tuning software and do it my self were did you get yours?
03-11-2008, 06:32 AM
#48
TECH Fanatic
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Indianapolis Indiana
Posts: 1,299
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My car bucks too, not as bad as you are describing though. I believe the 4.10's help somewhat. The previous owner of my car had someone tune it for him so I'm pretty sure its not 100% complete... i still get 30 MPG on the highway though.
Edit: And yes I can't go through a parking lot at like 1500 RPM in 1st gear without it bucking.
Edit: And yes I can't go through a parking lot at like 1500 RPM in 1st gear without it bucking.
03-11-2008, 08:18 AM
#49
TECH Regular
Thread Starter
iTrader: (9)
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Hellertown, PA
Posts: 409
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My car bucks too, not as bad as you are describing though. I believe the 4.10's help somewhat. The previous owner of my car had someone tune it for him so I'm pretty sure its not 100% complete... i still get 30 MPG on the highway though.
Edit: And yes I can't go through a parking lot at like 1500 RPM in 1st gear without it bucking.
Edit: And yes I can't go through a parking lot at like 1500 RPM in 1st gear without it bucking.
has anyone had there car tuned at race proven motor sports?
03-11-2008, 09:14 AM
#50
I only have a bit of cam surge right off idle, like trying to get around a parking lot in 2nd is pretty rough. Just had to adjust myself and used to being in 1st staying above idle.
Before the tune, there was surge up to the 2k range. It can be fixed by a good tuner by adding/removing fuel and spark and finding the right mix that will get rid of most of it. My tuner was able to get it almost bang on that if I reset the ECM, it has no issue relearning it within a min. I've seen stock cars go wild from being started in cold weather after it's ECM has been reset, so I would say it's possible to tune it right.
Before the tune, there was surge up to the 2k range. It can be fixed by a good tuner by adding/removing fuel and spark and finding the right mix that will get rid of most of it. My tuner was able to get it almost bang on that if I reset the ECM, it has no issue relearning it within a min. I've seen stock cars go wild from being started in cold weather after it's ECM has been reset, so I would say it's possible to tune it right.
03-11-2008, 09:35 AM
#51
TECH Regular
Thread Starter
iTrader: (9)
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Hellertown, PA
Posts: 409
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I only have a bit of cam surge right off idle, like trying to get around a parking lot in 2nd is pretty rough. Just had to adjust myself and used to being in 1st staying above idle.
Before the tune, there was surge up to the 2k range. It can be fixed by a good tuner by adding/removing fuel and spark and finding the right mix that will get rid of most of it. My tuner was able to get it almost bang on that if I reset the ECM, it has no issue relearning it within a min. I've seen stock cars go wild from being started in cold weather after it's ECM has been reset, so I would say it's possible to tune it right.
Before the tune, there was surge up to the 2k range. It can be fixed by a good tuner by adding/removing fuel and spark and finding the right mix that will get rid of most of it. My tuner was able to get it almost bang on that if I reset the ECM, it has no issue relearning it within a min. I've seen stock cars go wild from being started in cold weather after it's ECM has been reset, so I would say it's possible to tune it right.
04-14-2008, 02:47 PM
#52
TECH Fanatic
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: May 2003
Location: San Marcos, TX
Posts: 1,670
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Did the OP have any luck? I have the same cam and have been tuned by MTI and HPE, granted MTI didnt (and I didnt ask them) to do much other than fix some code issues related to the cam tuning, but I also run the Torquer 2 and its kinda ridiculous when im in parking lots if I need to ride the clutch a lot, if I dont its almost like riding a mechanical bull, and Icant shift into seconds because it wont stay running at those low speeds.
04-14-2008, 04:08 PM
#53
i took my car back to the tuners friday and just picked it up today they said they couldn't do anything to help out the low end cam surge " bucking or jerking" when cruising with light throttle. i have a torquer2 installed and i know there are guys out the running bigger cams than myself. does everyone have this problem cause the guy said its " in the nature of the cam" or is it just the tuner? i've got 2 other guys saying they can get rid of it but they might just be out for my money. please give me some honest answers cause the car isn't even enjoyable to drive unless i'm at wot all the time.
i had the same issues!! my car was jerking, bucking, surging, wanting to lunge forward and keeps dying out, and this was after it was dynotuned and everything. its in the tune. i remember my tuner telling me its something about a blad in the IAT or something and its not getting enough air or so. but it is all in the tune.
04-15-2008, 12:02 AM
#54
TECH Regular
iTrader: (6)
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Nj
Posts: 434
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'll tell you what dude, just be careful who you give your money to. I let some jackasses tune my car when it was first done (they are a sponsor on here too which is pretty sad), and IF they tuned my car, which I'm not even sure they did - it was the worst tune I've ever seen on any car.
AT BEST they tuned it at WOT and all my car did was surge and buck and I was getting <10mpg just about everywhere. My friend and I split the cost of the EFI Live software and got my car tuned reasonable well in a couple of days in my driveway HAVING NEVER SEEN THE PROGRAM BEFORE.
So just b/c someone SAYS they can do something, doesn't mean anything.
Best of luck to you.
AT BEST they tuned it at WOT and all my car did was surge and buck and I was getting <10mpg just about everywhere. My friend and I split the cost of the EFI Live software and got my car tuned reasonable well in a couple of days in my driveway HAVING NEVER SEEN THE PROGRAM BEFORE.
So just b/c someone SAYS they can do something, doesn't mean anything.
Best of luck to you.
04-15-2008, 02:01 AM
#55
TECH Fanatic
iTrader: (7)
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 1,607
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All 3 guys in my car club that have ms4's in there cars have zero issues with low rpm surge and they were all tuned by our great local tuner...rick at synergy motorsports
04-15-2008, 02:26 AM
#56
I am going with the TR230 cam. I am going to have to get a mail order tune to start out. I have been told to go with TSP or Speed Inc. When I get a dyno tune I will gladly drive six hours each way to get a good one.
There are so many people out there that "say" they know how to tune. That's a pretty big gamble to trust someone who could lean out your engine and grenade it.
I also think it's unfair to tell someone to spend the money to get EFI Live or HP Tuners then figure it out. If it was "that" easy a good tune would be easier to find.
For me personally, I don't think I am smart enough to learn how to tune or have to much ADD to figure it out.
Maybe talk to a sponsor on here(I know someone said they had a bad experience with one)and see if a mail order tune would be a good place to start. I don't think they are that much.
Finding a good tuner is like finding a good transmission guy or suspension guy. There are a lot of people who say they know what they are doing but few really do.
Best of luck to you.
Jason
There are so many people out there that "say" they know how to tune. That's a pretty big gamble to trust someone who could lean out your engine and grenade it.
I also think it's unfair to tell someone to spend the money to get EFI Live or HP Tuners then figure it out. If it was "that" easy a good tune would be easier to find.
For me personally, I don't think I am smart enough to learn how to tune or have to much ADD to figure it out.
Maybe talk to a sponsor on here(I know someone said they had a bad experience with one)and see if a mail order tune would be a good place to start. I don't think they are that much.
Finding a good tuner is like finding a good transmission guy or suspension guy. There are a lot of people who say they know what they are doing but few really do.
Best of luck to you.
Jason
04-16-2008, 05:17 PM
#57
I am going with the TR230 cam. I am going to have to get a mail order tune to start out. I have been told to go with TSP or Speed Inc. When I get a dyno tune I will gladly drive six hours each way to get a good one.
There are so many people out there that "say" they know how to tune. That's a pretty big gamble to trust someone who could lean out your engine and grenade it.
I also think it's unfair to tell someone to spend the money to get EFI Live or HP Tuners then figure it out. If it was "that" easy a good tune would be easier to find.
For me personally, I don't think I am smart enough to learn how to tune or have to much ADD to figure it out.
Maybe talk to a sponsor on here(I know someone said they had a bad experience with one)and see if a mail order tune would be a good place to start. I don't think they are that much.
Finding a good tuner is like finding a good transmission guy or suspension guy. There are a lot of people who say they know what they are doing but few really do.
Best of luck to you.
Jason
There are so many people out there that "say" they know how to tune. That's a pretty big gamble to trust someone who could lean out your engine and grenade it.
I also think it's unfair to tell someone to spend the money to get EFI Live or HP Tuners then figure it out. If it was "that" easy a good tune would be easier to find.
For me personally, I don't think I am smart enough to learn how to tune or have to much ADD to figure it out.
Maybe talk to a sponsor on here(I know someone said they had a bad experience with one)and see if a mail order tune would be a good place to start. I don't think they are that much.
Finding a good tuner is like finding a good transmission guy or suspension guy. There are a lot of people who say they know what they are doing but few really do.
Best of luck to you.
Jason
Bill
04-16-2008, 05:46 PM
#58
10 Second Club
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: ny
Posts: 253
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
your tuner should have the car for a few days, and put some miles on it for anything to get accomplished. this shouldnt be a 20 min walkin walkout procedure and expect to be speeding off right away. slpfirehawk pm sent
04-16-2008, 08:52 PM
#59
I would like to drive some ls1-powered vehicles with cams similar to mine and slightly larger. Mine is 224/228 110lsa advertised. I still have a little bucking at lower rpm’s in 1st & 2nd. In all honesty, I do not know what expectations are reasonable. This is my first and only non-grocery-getter. I hear people say they have “like stock” drivability with monstrously huge cams and 800 degrees of overlap and others say that bucking is just the price you pay for anything as big or bigger than my cam.
