AMS

When turning out these high hp setups, its all about the combination. Not each part...but how each part works as a whole. All I do is dyno tune cars all day long....cars we put together, cars that other shops put together...and combos that people throw together at home. Guess what....there is no set hp for a given setup. I have heads and cam cars, with a perfect tune...putout 370rwhp. I have cam cars that put out over 400. Some people have worn out shortblocks, some people have 2.5 inch y-pipes, some have 3 inch. Some have a Ls6 intake with a stk tb, some have a shaner tb. Point is...the only way to make the big numbers (450rwhp+) is to have everything perfect. Do you think the people on the top 10 list in the drag section show up to the track with street tires? Do you chase the fastest stock internal record with a stk convertor? No, NO, and NO. Same thing when you are chasing a dyno record <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />

Chris

AP-Engineering

Not all headers are created equal. Lou usually has a good header on the car. If this was the case here, then his "package" would come out with better numbers compared to everyone elses. Everythinig in the engine that has to do with induction and exhaust must work in harmony with each other. The closer you get to this the more power you will make. So has anyone thought that Lou might have just taken a step closer to harmony. Also the longer we all keep working on these engines the more power we are going to find. All of the power secrets for the old SBC's did not happen over night. Give it some thought before we start discrediting sponsors.

Thanks,
Chris Gelineau
Diamond Pistons
877-552-2112 toll free

PAULJ99Z

The problem is that everyone posts peak numbers. I would like to see average HP and Torque numbers from 3000 RPM to redline for each package. That's what accelerates the car. Still, comparing dyno's and flowbenches is very difficult.

It would be nice if an unbiased shop could dyno these cars and post these results.

Paul J.

v8 ute

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by pony killer:
<strong> hey pat mussi the infamous drag racer has a good article in the hot rod engines winter 2002 mag where he layed down 445 hp at 5,600 rpm and 488 tq at 4,400 rpm on a 382 with ported heads and a mild 218/227 degree at .050 on a 113 lsa so i dont see 460 hp out of a 346 impossible. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="gr_images/icons/cool.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Was that at the flywheel or rear wheels?

I don't have problem with these small blocks making the horsepower that is being bandied about (particularly LS6 heads), that's progress.

LG Motorsports

With regard to the G5 cam, we were getting 425to 435+ rwhp out of every package that we did. 11:1 compression.
We even went to other shops, Speed Works, and MTI to dyno one car, and we got within 2 hp at speed works and about the same at MTI. We only did a few cam only/header cars, and never got much over 400rwhp with just cam and header. Tamuz got 408 with our G5 cam and headers but that was another story.
If someone is not getting 425+ with a G5cam, headers and their own heads, then They should get some help from all of you here to pick it up.

Just to give you some perspective on what small cu in Chev small blocks can make. We dynoed 613rwhp on our 310cu in small block with a 750 Carb. 1 3/4 inch headers (tri Y) exiting into two 3.5" Ypipe to one 5 " tail pipe 25" long.
That is the engine that we rolled in at Ennis and did 9.49/138mph with. The cubes are smaller than what we have in the LS1 but the Head and Headers make the difference. The 750 Carb is an 830cfm on a 750 base plate, and it flows 1250cfm . This is what can be done with cubes that can breathe. The LS1/6 when built up is limited by the flow available from the manifold. Plus most of the headers are a very bad compromise. The collectors are junk street collectors. the primaries are not even close to equal length. and there has been very little testing to change this situation. The aftermarket will not pay for headers that are done correctly. We sell a very effective, race quality header for the Corvettes, and it costs $2500 complete with a 3" "X" pipe and
they are practically hand built. The collectors alone cost almost $600.
The headers on my race car cost me $5800. If a junk FLX or Grot or Hooker would make hp, then no one in their right mind would pay $5800 for a set of headers. Plus, we have a different set of headers for different tracks. Daytona requires a 1 3/4" to a 1 7/8" and a different angle on the Merge collector. Do you see that even the angle of the Merge Collector makes a difference.
The headers on the 310 cu in make 700 fly wheel hp. If I put that same set on our 358 Daytona engine, we make 725 fwhp, but if I put the larger headers on the 358 cu in, We make almost 760 fwhp. We lose torque down low, (5000 rpms, but we gain top rpm hp at 8200 rpms.

As for the LS1's, we got what we got. Our dyno is within 5hp of any we have tested against.
Any guesses what we will get out of our Solid Roller 346 cu in in about 2 weeks??
If we don't hit 500rwhp, we will pull the engine out and change what ever we have to change to get there with 346 cu in and LS6 heads.

Lou G

<small>[ February 05, 2003, 07:57 PM: Message edited by: LG Motorsports ]</small>

XtraCajunSS

iTrader: (2)

The proof is at the track. Jason99T/A has run a 10.74 @ 128.9 so far tonight. That falls right in line for a 460RWHP car...

When you start to look at the correlation between MPH and RWHP claims, the dyno tricks will always fall by the wayside.

Shane

Geoff

iTrader: (3)

Actually that little birdie just sang again...Jason now has the fastest N.A. 346 M6 or A4 in E.T. and MPH of anyone on this board. The proof is in the track times...Jason will give the details later.

DenzSS

Jason99T/A is a solid roller and far from a heads/cam package. Sure, you can make a ton of power on a 346 or even a 302, but I don't buy these guys gaining 150RWHP with bolt-ons, heads/cam.

Geoff

iTrader: (3)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by DenzSS:
<strong> Jason99T/A is a solid roller and far from a heads/cam package. Sure, you can make a ton of power on a 346 or even a 302, but I don't buy these guys gaining 150RWHP with bolt-ons, heads/cam. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Denz,

You can add a solid roller setup to a stock short block just as easily as a built bottom end. In spite of what some vendors claim there is little or no boost in power from a forged bottom end, just more reliability. I don't think a stock bottom end will last long at these power levels. Remember Jason's deal is done with a 12-Bolt and 4.56 gears, no B.S. dyno tricks. With a 10-Bolt, Lightened Flywheel, Short-Belt, Race Gas, ETC. Jason's car will EASILY exceed 500 RWHP.

LG Motorsports

All of the LG Motorsports Dyno numbers were achieved with a steel flywheel, Z06 Clutch, and full belts. The Numbers on our 98 Z28 were made with a 410 rear end also. The Z06 has a 342 gear in it. I am still amazed that this is still going on.
What should be the proper way to handle a big rwhp number? should everyone just keep it quiet, and not tell anyone? what should we do?

Good run Jason. What was the temp? the wether.com said 45 deg with 30.11 baro. But good run still.
You see, this door swings both ways, There can always be a "Yeah but" this and that. The only thing that matters is what it is. Not what someone else thinks.
Again, I say Good run Jason, for real.

Lou G

Geoff

iTrader: (3)

Lou,

I never said your numbers were bogus, but in so many words you did accuse me of tricking the dyno. IMHO your numbers are quite real. That's fine, it just means we have to work twice as hard as everyone else to prove we are for real also. In spite of your claims about us lowly 'internet parts forwarders' we are quite capable of producing fast cars. It is actually pretty easy to back up your dyno numbers with track times.

BADZ

iTrader: (5)

John Cambell is running 10.60's with just heads and cam and no SOLID ROLLER set up and just at 400 rwhp (stock internals at that), what's your thought's on this?????

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by XtraCajunSS:
<strong> The proof is at the track. Jason99T/A has run a 10.74 @ 128.9 so far tonight. That falls right in line for a 460RWHP car...

When you start to look at the correlation between MPH and RWHP claims, the dyno tricks will always fall by the wayside.

Shane </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

VINCE

iTrader: (1)

Thoughts are lighter car with a STall against more weight and a M6...

Geoff

iTrader: (3)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by BADZ:
<strong> John Cambell is running 10.60's with just heads and cam and no SOLID ROLLER set up and just at 400 rwhp (stock internals at that), what's your thought's on this?????

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">[/QB][/QUOTE]


Jason has gone quicker and faster as of the end of the night. He also has an M6 and a heavier raceweight. I don't won't to get into a flamefest with John or anything (and this question smacks of flamebait) but IMHO it is a lot easier to get a light A4 to run the number rather than a heavier M6. If you want an example of a mild combination running a number look at Angie's deal...TR 220 Cam, Stock Compression, CNC Heads, 10.81@123.5 MPH.

ALSO.. the biggest factor in an A4 car running a number is the torque converter...Mike@Yank is awsome with this...weighs much more heavily than whatever heads and cam package you happen to be running. If you have the best cam and heads package money can get and a crappy converter you are going to get smaked by a car with a stock engine and a great converter.

<small>[ February 05, 2003, 10:38 PM: Message edited by: Geoff ]</small>

BEASST99

I know for a fact that Advanced Induction put down 471RWHP and right around 430RWTQ with their head/cam package. That was through a 10-bolt and an aluminum DS in a T56. This was with a relatively small hydraulic roller.

<small>[ February 05, 2003, 10:48 PM: Message edited by: BEASST99 ]</small>

red53gmc

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by BADZ:
<strong> John Cambell is running 10.60's with just heads and cam and no SOLID ROLLER set up and just at 400 rwhp (stock internals at that), what's your thought's on this????? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Since when was changing heads and cam not changing the internals? By far that's not stock internals.

Fenris Ulf

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by JS:
<strong> Fernis,Did it ever occur to u that Carteks "cam timing" might be different than your buddies with the same dur/lift numbers or how much adv./retard they grind into their cams could vary from thier cams?

I can assure u,your buddies dont have the same 224-228 580-580 that Cartek is using.FWIW my older S2 setup runs a 224-224 573-573 113LSA

JS </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, it did occur to me JS and I said so in my post. I know full well that .050" numbers do not tell the whole story.

My point was that there is no super secret cam timing trick being used to get these numbers.

pony killer

v8 ute the article reads thi is rear wheel hp, sounded impresive so i thought i'd post it by the way it also states that he retained the stock size valves in the heads even though their aftermarket units <img border="0" alt="[burn out]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_burnout.gif" />

pony killer

v8 ute the article reads this is rear wheel hp, sounded impresive so i thought i'd post it by the way it also states that he retained the stock size valves in the heads even though their aftermarket units <img border="0" alt="[burn out]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_burnout.gif" />

JS

iTrader: (4)

Actuall John went 10.86@124 with a stock untouched shortblock,he went 10.66@127 with a rebuilt shortblock that has better pistons,rings,bearings and has been balanced.He also has LS6 heads on the car now so to say he went 10.6 with a stock GM shortblock is slightly incorrect.

Now I have a real problem with the guys on here that say,"having a rebuilt shortblock doesnt do u any good or give u any extra power.

Are u kidding me?

Lets see,U add a killer set of heads to a fully balanced and blue printed shortblock,then u throw a set of $990 T&D rocker shafts and a solid roller into an engine.U tune it to the tee and shift it at 7500.

Then u take a setup running a STOCK GM shortblock with killer heads,hyd roller and a max shift point of say 6800?

Who wants to tell me what setup will make more power?According to some of our sponsors these 2 engines are identical,Yea in Fantasy land!!!

Bottom line,There's more to it that bolting on parts.Take your time and set it up correctly and the rewards will pay off.

JS