Trick Flow 235cc vs. LS7 head
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Joined: Jan 2008
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From: Las Vegas
I applaud your efforts.
But this test is not true test of cylinder heads.
As everyone should know, a camshaft should be matched to a cylinder head. If you were testing a TFS 225 vs a ETP 225 then I would be on board with you. As it is you have a cam that is proven to generate big numbers with you heads and you stick it with a head that will want a completely different set of valve events. Honestly I am shocked that the LS7 heads did this good. Brian Tooley and I had a conversation about this several months ago and he said a test of this sort was in the works. I asked him then to please run a different cam on the ls7 heads than the TFS stuff.
I propose one more test. Very simple. Run the Katech/GM cam in this same motor. Either one will work, either the 220/244 or the 233/276. These are not magic cams or secret in any way. I would be interested in what the results were then.
But this test is not true test of cylinder heads.
As everyone should know, a camshaft should be matched to a cylinder head. If you were testing a TFS 225 vs a ETP 225 then I would be on board with you. As it is you have a cam that is proven to generate big numbers with you heads and you stick it with a head that will want a completely different set of valve events. Honestly I am shocked that the LS7 heads did this good. Brian Tooley and I had a conversation about this several months ago and he said a test of this sort was in the works. I asked him then to please run a different cam on the ls7 heads than the TFS stuff.
I propose one more test. Very simple. Run the Katech/GM cam in this same motor. Either one will work, either the 220/244 or the 233/276. These are not magic cams or secret in any way. I would be interested in what the results were then.
I am running a 416 with a XER 244/248 .612/.615 114+4. I degreed it in on a 109.7 ICL. I am going to run 12.01:1 SCR and 8.63:1 DCR, 67cc, Cometic 4.085" bore, .045" thickness. I have Ron's ported 90/90, YT's, UD. I am going to be running the LG Pro's with Borla Stingers that were off of Tony Mamo's car. They have been modified some, basicly because I am out of money. I also wanted to get Pat G to spec me up another cam, but again, out of money. So I am pretty much stuck with what I have. I would really like to see 550/525rw. That is the goal in the end. This motor will also be going in a daily driven 02 Z06. I will be happy if I see 525/500rw in it current configuration.
Brett
Brett
As far as TFS, excellent R&D, Just more data to soak up.. Keep up the good work!
Last edited by 3fingas; May 20, 2008 at 09:43 PM.
Thread Starter
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More results This graph shows the same work up but with the GM cam.
Cam Specs are: 233/276 ( the cam actually measures 236/278 @ .050) .629/.629 lift with 1.8 ratio rockers. 107 lope seperation. We used the 1.7 Jesel rockers on our head which give .595 lift.
Cam Specs are: 233/276 ( the cam actually measures 236/278 @ .050) .629/.629 lift with 1.8 ratio rockers. 107 lope seperation. We used the 1.7 Jesel rockers on our head which give .595 lift.
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Thanks Brian. I do have to say that it some of the most bitter crow I have ever eaten though. And I have eaten ALOT!!! LOL
EDIT: I did say people would be surprised, I just didn't think it would be me!!!!!!!
EDIT: I did say people would be surprised, I just didn't think it would be me!!!!!!!
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Joined: Aug 2005
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From: ohio
That is awesome. I applaud the guys over at Trickflow for spending the extra time, money, and manhours to go back and run the other camshaft just to "find out". I hope to see more of these type of test's in the future!
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Brett Foote
If I'm looking at this correctly, the GM cam on the TFS heads makes almost 600 TQ at 4500 RPM,
which is up almost 50 lb ft, and the peak horsepower is not down very much? I would love to see a graph of the TFS heads overlaid with both cams. A shop once told me they put a smaller cam in place of a larger cam in a 440 cu in TFS 235 headed engine and it didn't lose much peak, but gained TQ everywhere.
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Thanks guys.
Look for more up and coming test results.
Look for more up and coming test results.
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FormerVendor
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,065
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From: Houston, Tx.
Damn I am surprised as well but the TFS 235s we've used so far have really run well that's certainly true. If there was a little shorter and larger runner manifold the TFS would even run better probably but still very impressive and great results all through the midrange and down low comparitively.
Amen, Cudos to TFS!
If I'm looking at this correctly, the GM cam on the TFS heads makes almost 600 TQ at 4500 RPM, which is up almost 50 lb ft, and the peak horsepower is not down very much? I would love to see a graph of the TFS heads overlaid with both cams.
A shop once told me they put a smaller cam in place of a larger cam in a 440 cu in TFS 235 headed engine and it didn't lose much peak, but gained TQ everywhere.
If I'm looking at this correctly, the GM cam on the TFS heads makes almost 600 TQ at 4500 RPM,
which is up almost 50 lb ft, and the peak horsepower is not down very much? I would love to see a graph of the TFS heads overlaid with both cams. A shop once told me they put a smaller cam in place of a larger cam in a 440 cu in TFS 235 headed engine and it didn't lose much peak, but gained TQ everywhere.
It seems like the Trick Flows are great heads, in fact I am thinking about getting them. But it does seem like there are a fair amount of Z06's that are getting 540-575 rwhp with cam only and 575-625 rwhp with cam/ported heads.
It just seems like the non LS7 headed cars need really high compression/more cubic inches to get similar results.
It just seems like the non LS7 headed cars need really high compression/more cubic inches to get similar results.
Thanks for sharing, interesting thread..
How in the world did you come to that conclusion??? Because of the few extra HP at the last couple hundred RPM?? I understand its almost 50hp at 7K, but you just wouldnt shift the lower hp car at that rpm.
Drag races are won/lost based off of highest average HP, and power delivery in the given RPM range.
Based off of the graph, the car with the lower HP and torque would have a significant lead by the time the higher hp/tq allowed the other car to gain momentum on the big end..
I would take the couple less HP any day of the week, based off of the power under the curve..IMHO
Drag races are won/lost based off of highest average HP, and power delivery in the given RPM range.
Based off of the graph, the car with the lower HP and torque would have a significant lead by the time the higher hp/tq allowed the other car to gain momentum on the big end..
I would take the couple less HP any day of the week, based off of the power under the curve..IMHO
Average power means NADA except for driveability. All of that is wiped clean the moment the car goes WOT and the gears are changed and suited for each RPM band. The LS7's will breathe longer. RPM=MPH!!!
If a car is making more HP up top and shifts later and falls back into an area that still is making more power then the lower peaking head, you bet your *** the higher hp head extending RPM out later will WALK all over the lower HP head with less rpm range. You can't be seriously trying to argue this....
Average power means NADA except for driveability. All of that is wiped clean the moment the car goes WOT and the gears are changed and suited for each RPM band. The LS7's will breathe longer. RPM=MPH!!!
Average power means NADA except for driveability. All of that is wiped clean the moment the car goes WOT and the gears are changed and suited for each RPM band. The LS7's will breathe longer. RPM=MPH!!!
Also, 3-5500 is an absolute *** tearing exp with the big tq, in addition to up top.
I like LS7 heads, but with sheetmetal and a solid roller. Then you'd see the big flow numbers shine. Til then...my TFS treating me real good.
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From: Texas / 427ci F1R 1,002 rwhp/928 rwtq
Damn I am surprised as well but the TFS 235s we've used so far have really run well that's certainly true. If there was a little shorter and larger runner manifold the TFS would even run better probably but still very impressive and great results all through the midrange and down low comparitively.