Will wrong valves seals do this?
Interesting....I'll have to do a little bit of research on it. My head porting guy wasn't aware of that either, but I'll run it by him tomorrow and see what he says.
TECH Enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 542
Likes: 0
From: Memphis, TN
weird, you are right, the cathedral ports on one head are catherdral....then on the other they are rounded off...odd. Somebody screwed up big there. You got a head from 2 different batches or something...
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,043
Likes: 0
From: Texas and Qatar
I seen these heads today, and I can assure you this was definitely a case of the wrong valve seal installed and improper dual spring kit usage.
The original customer ordered the heads with stock LS6 valves, seals, springs. The GM LS6 valve seal is the integral seal/seat/spring locater combo that is made for beehive springs. Well whomever installed the dual springs did NOT remove the stock one piece seal/seat/spring locator seal and installed the Dual spring without the matching spring seat that is included in EVERY Dual Spring Kit, they kept the stock integral seat seal combo instead of the hardened spring locater and valve seal the kit includes. I've actually seen this a couple of times, not damaging to this extent though.
So basically what happens is the inner spring breaks, and gets lodged into the outer spring coils causing a huge binding issue. This in turn broke the cylinder head as aluminum was the weakest link in this particular binding issue. The Aluminum measures over .200" thick at its thinnest point in this port, that doesn't just break on its own.
I'll post up MY pics tomorrow along with the right way and wrong way to assemble double spring kits.
The original customer ordered the heads with stock LS6 valves, seals, springs. The GM LS6 valve seal is the integral seal/seat/spring locater combo that is made for beehive springs. Well whomever installed the dual springs did NOT remove the stock one piece seal/seat/spring locator seal and installed the Dual spring without the matching spring seat that is included in EVERY Dual Spring Kit, they kept the stock integral seat seal combo instead of the hardened spring locater and valve seal the kit includes. I've actually seen this a couple of times, not damaging to this extent though.
So basically what happens is the inner spring breaks, and gets lodged into the outer spring coils causing a huge binding issue. This in turn broke the cylinder head as aluminum was the weakest link in this particular binding issue. The Aluminum measures over .200" thick at its thinnest point in this port, that doesn't just break on its own.
I'll post up MY pics tomorrow along with the right way and wrong way to assemble double spring kits.
While your at it, explain why the portings are different between the two heads.
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,937
Likes: 0
From: Kansas City, Mo
Thats what I want to know! I did not even realize they were so different untill I pulled the intake off to take the head off. Tim told TSP he was putting dual springs on the new heads and they didnt tell him he needed to change the new seals that the heads came with. I never knew it was an issue because I have ran these same style seals with dual springs for years now.
Guys I understand why your trying to get on our case, but this is absolutely nothing done wrong at TSP.
You guys that think the valve seals being incorrect could not cause this must not have any experience with valvetrain at all. This customer has bought these heads used from someone & somewhere along the way somebody decided to install a set of double springs over the stock valve seals.
IF YOU INSTALL THE DOUBLE SPRING OVER A STOCK VALVE SEAL & FORCE IT ON THE SPRINGS ARE GOING TO BIND UP! I personally have looked over this head 10 times & the head is very thick everywhere in the areas where the head cracked. There is absolutely no way this head ever fails if the customer installs the products correctly.
I offered to replace the casting free of any machine work charges for the customer because I felt bad for him buying a set of heads used and not knowing how to properly install a spring kit.
I'm really frustrated at this point, I offered to replace machine work if he bought a new bare stock casting & rework his other heads including replacing damaged springs just to be helpful.
Is a 2 page post hammering us for these issues really fair?
It's really simple guys if the spring is coil binding & being smashed together because it was misinstalled then you simply can't blame us.
These cylinder heads were sold to another customer with stock valves, stock springs..
You guys that think the valve seals being incorrect could not cause this must not have any experience with valvetrain at all. This customer has bought these heads used from someone & somewhere along the way somebody decided to install a set of double springs over the stock valve seals.
IF YOU INSTALL THE DOUBLE SPRING OVER A STOCK VALVE SEAL & FORCE IT ON THE SPRINGS ARE GOING TO BIND UP! I personally have looked over this head 10 times & the head is very thick everywhere in the areas where the head cracked. There is absolutely no way this head ever fails if the customer installs the products correctly.
I offered to replace the casting free of any machine work charges for the customer because I felt bad for him buying a set of heads used and not knowing how to properly install a spring kit.
I'm really frustrated at this point, I offered to replace machine work if he bought a new bare stock casting & rework his other heads including replacing damaged springs just to be helpful.
Is a 2 page post hammering us for these issues really fair?
It's really simple guys if the spring is coil binding & being smashed together because it was misinstalled then you simply can't blame us.
These cylinder heads were sold to another customer with stock valves, stock springs..
__________________
Jason
Co-Owner, Texas Speed & Performance, Ltd.
2005 Twin Turbo C6
404cid Stroker, 67mm Twins
994rwhp/902lb ft @ 22 psi (mustang dyno) www.Texas-Speed.com
Jason
Co-Owner, Texas Speed & Performance, Ltd.
2005 Twin Turbo C6
404cid Stroker, 67mm Twins
994rwhp/902lb ft @ 22 psi (mustang dyno) www.Texas-Speed.com
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Brett Foote
Teching In
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Guys I understand why your trying to get on our case, but this is absolutely nothing done wrong at TSP.
You guys that think the valve seals being incorrect could not cause this must not have any experience with valvetrain at all. This customer has bought these heads used from someone & somewhere along the way somebody decided to install a set of double springs over the stock valve seals.
IF YOU INSTALL THE DOUBLE SPRING OVER A STOCK VALVE SEAL & FORCE IT ON THE SPRINGS ARE GOING TO BIND UP! I personally have looked over this head 10 times & the head is very thick everywhere in the areas where the head cracked. There is absolutely no way this head ever fails if the customer installs the products correctly.
I offered to replace the casting free of any machine work charges for the customer because I felt bad for him buying a set of heads used and not knowing how to properly install a spring kit.
I'm really frustrated at this point, I offered to replace machine work if he bought a new bare stock casting & rework his other heads including replacing damaged springs just to be helpful.
Is a 2 page post hammering us for these issues really fair?
It's really simple guys if the spring is coil binding & being smashed together because it was misinstalled then you simply can't blame us.
These cylinder heads were sold to another customer with stock valves, stock springs..
You guys that think the valve seals being incorrect could not cause this must not have any experience with valvetrain at all. This customer has bought these heads used from someone & somewhere along the way somebody decided to install a set of double springs over the stock valve seals.
IF YOU INSTALL THE DOUBLE SPRING OVER A STOCK VALVE SEAL & FORCE IT ON THE SPRINGS ARE GOING TO BIND UP! I personally have looked over this head 10 times & the head is very thick everywhere in the areas where the head cracked. There is absolutely no way this head ever fails if the customer installs the products correctly.
I offered to replace the casting free of any machine work charges for the customer because I felt bad for him buying a set of heads used and not knowing how to properly install a spring kit.
I'm really frustrated at this point, I offered to replace machine work if he bought a new bare stock casting & rework his other heads including replacing damaged springs just to be helpful.
Is a 2 page post hammering us for these issues really fair?
It's really simple guys if the spring is coil binding & being smashed together because it was misinstalled then you simply can't blame us.
These cylinder heads were sold to another customer with stock valves, stock springs..
And why are you avoiding the question of why the heads look different
Guys the cylinder head that the customer sent us is a new style LS6 runner from our new batch. I have no idea what head is on the other side of the engine, I don't have it hear.
THESE HEADS WERE NOT PURCHASED FROM US! How am I suppose to know what the two heads looked like or what the springs were setup like?
I can tell you anyone with half a brain knows the the cnc machine doesn't just round off a corner or change up a program for grins. If the heads are actually different then that means the heads are different programs.
THESE HEADS WERE NOT PURCHASED FROM US! How am I suppose to know what the two heads looked like or what the springs were setup like?
I can tell you anyone with half a brain knows the the cnc machine doesn't just round off a corner or change up a program for grins. If the heads are actually different then that means the heads are different programs.
__________________
Jason
Co-Owner, Texas Speed & Performance, Ltd.
2005 Twin Turbo C6
404cid Stroker, 67mm Twins
994rwhp/902lb ft @ 22 psi (mustang dyno) www.Texas-Speed.com
Jason
Co-Owner, Texas Speed & Performance, Ltd.
2005 Twin Turbo C6
404cid Stroker, 67mm Twins
994rwhp/902lb ft @ 22 psi (mustang dyno) www.Texas-Speed.com
No Brian I am not avoiding any point of any of this thread. Anyone here is more than welcome to call me and discuss this at any point.
I am also not disagreeing with JoeyG the old style ls6 heads had failure issues when they were to thin around the rocker area. HOWEVER this cylinder head I have here is the new version cut on 799 casting & is very thick around the area of this failure.
I understand very well the large 240cc runner version had failures & I replaced cylinder heads for tons of people without any issues making sure they were fixed up.
That being said this is a small runner head that was sent to me. It simply would not have failed without these issues.
What do you guys want from me? The heads were not bought from me, not incorrectly installed by me, & nobody here told him to install the spring setup binding up... Even though all these things happened I offered to rework his good head, replace all the machine work on both heads free of charge if he replaces the 1 $250 casting & buys new springs BECAUSE ALL THE SPRINGS ARE BROKE!!
Guys I don't get it, what do you want from me???
I am also not disagreeing with JoeyG the old style ls6 heads had failure issues when they were to thin around the rocker area. HOWEVER this cylinder head I have here is the new version cut on 799 casting & is very thick around the area of this failure.
I understand very well the large 240cc runner version had failures & I replaced cylinder heads for tons of people without any issues making sure they were fixed up.
That being said this is a small runner head that was sent to me. It simply would not have failed without these issues.
What do you guys want from me? The heads were not bought from me, not incorrectly installed by me, & nobody here told him to install the spring setup binding up... Even though all these things happened I offered to rework his good head, replace all the machine work on both heads free of charge if he replaces the 1 $250 casting & buys new springs BECAUSE ALL THE SPRINGS ARE BROKE!!
Guys I don't get it, what do you want from me???
__________________
Jason
Co-Owner, Texas Speed & Performance, Ltd.
2005 Twin Turbo C6
404cid Stroker, 67mm Twins
994rwhp/902lb ft @ 22 psi (mustang dyno) www.Texas-Speed.com
Jason
Co-Owner, Texas Speed & Performance, Ltd.
2005 Twin Turbo C6
404cid Stroker, 67mm Twins
994rwhp/902lb ft @ 22 psi (mustang dyno) www.Texas-Speed.com
Just so you know guys the casting I received yesterday is definately the smaller runner that we ship everyday.
In the 150+ sets of these new smaller runner LS6 heads we've shipped we have never had a single failure. I will be posting pics of a cut away of this head shortly.
In the 150+ sets of these new smaller runner LS6 heads we've shipped we have never had a single failure. I will be posting pics of a cut away of this head shortly.
__________________
Jason
Co-Owner, Texas Speed & Performance, Ltd.
2005 Twin Turbo C6
404cid Stroker, 67mm Twins
994rwhp/902lb ft @ 22 psi (mustang dyno) www.Texas-Speed.com
Jason
Co-Owner, Texas Speed & Performance, Ltd.
2005 Twin Turbo C6
404cid Stroker, 67mm Twins
994rwhp/902lb ft @ 22 psi (mustang dyno) www.Texas-Speed.com
Teching In
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
It's good to hear your side of things...Sorry for jumping the gun, it seemed like you were trying to avoid the question about the heads being different, but i realize you were just trying to answer the questions in order, my apologies.
TECH Fanatic
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,292
Likes: 6
From: RainbowCity,Alabama
If someone installs a dual spring on top of the stock 1 pc seat base/seal combo you will have major coil bind. This is designed for a factory single spring, not a dual spring. The customer had the seat base and seal that was supplied with the PRC kit but must have been too lazy to install them, or didn't know any better. How can this be TSP's fault?
Last edited by TVWilkes; May 7, 2008 at 08:28 AM.
So I guess the moral of this story is buy used parts that you dont know about, misinstall all your parts & post a post hammering the vendor & the guys at ls1tech will help you bash them until you get what you want.
I didn't know the ls1tech was turning into corvetteforum so fast!
How many times have any of you guys seen a double spring installed on a ported head with stock springs? How many of you guys tried this and knew it wouldn't cause a failure?
You know the problem is we have tons of guys on ls1tech that throw their opinion around like they know what they're talking about when they really don't.
Jason I had a 1000rwhp turbo motor with your ls6 heads that I got a hole burned into the chamber when my reluctor wheel backed off my crankshaft going down the track. The engine lost firing order & melted the head, but I plan on making a new thread blaming you for all these issues.
I want you to give me a new car free. NOW!!
I didn't know the ls1tech was turning into corvetteforum so fast!
How many times have any of you guys seen a double spring installed on a ported head with stock springs? How many of you guys tried this and knew it wouldn't cause a failure?
You know the problem is we have tons of guys on ls1tech that throw their opinion around like they know what they're talking about when they really don't.
Jason I had a 1000rwhp turbo motor with your ls6 heads that I got a hole burned into the chamber when my reluctor wheel backed off my crankshaft going down the track. The engine lost firing order & melted the head, but I plan on making a new thread blaming you for all these issues.
I want you to give me a new car free. NOW!!
TECH Fanatic
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,292
Likes: 6
From: RainbowCity,Alabama
From the picture of the broken head, there is a ton of material around the rocker area. You can easily tell this isn't the old style head (240cc).
Last edited by TVWilkes; May 7, 2008 at 09:00 AM.
No it definately is the new version of the port. It has approx .180" at its thinnest point & is very thick in a lot of other areas. I am putting together detailed pics for you guys.
__________________
Jason
Co-Owner, Texas Speed & Performance, Ltd.
2005 Twin Turbo C6
404cid Stroker, 67mm Twins
994rwhp/902lb ft @ 22 psi (mustang dyno) www.Texas-Speed.com
Jason
Co-Owner, Texas Speed & Performance, Ltd.
2005 Twin Turbo C6
404cid Stroker, 67mm Twins
994rwhp/902lb ft @ 22 psi (mustang dyno) www.Texas-Speed.com
Did you use the 2002+ stock valve seals that had the integrated valve seats? Maybe you were approaching coil bind? Most cases in the past have been due to earlier CNC programs that ran the intake port a little too thin for heavy valvesprings.
Never mind... Just read the second and third pages...
Never mind... Just read the second and third pages...
Yes this is the customer installed the one piece valve seal with double springs. For those 400 miles the car was driven with springs coil binding & breaking up.
Pics coming....
Pics coming....
Did you use the 2002+ stock valve seals that had the integrated valve seats? Maybe you were approaching coil bind? Most cases in the past have been due to earlier CNC programs that ran the intake port a little too thin for heavy valvesprings.
Never mind... Just read the second and third pages...
Never mind... Just read the second and third pages...