bodhi

Okay. I've been talking to a bunch of people and discussing cylinder heads. I've found that a stg II 5.3 2.055"/1.60 - dual spring Ti retainer- head is the way to go for my car. Now I know that everyone is gonna say that their head flows as good or better than everyone else, but there are several people saying that their head flow the best. I've been told time and time again that MTI and GTP were the best. Unfortunatly, I refuse to pay that much for a set of heads. I understand that MTI puts a great deal of time and expertise into their heads, but I can't see how the extra 5hp is worth a grand. - If that is the case.
I've spoken to Brent @ TEA, Jay @Absolute, Terry @ Patroit and TSP. They have all told me that their heads flow around 300CFM give or take. The only one that was lower was Patriot. Terry said that his heads flowed about 295 CFM, but MTI's heads flowed about 10 cfm less (give or take- I don't remember the exact numbers). This was done on a Superflow 1020 bench and according to him this bench is much more accurate and realistic. Is it?
Terry's comment was that his parent company- Alabama Cylinder head manufatures cylinder heads for O'reilly's Autozone and places like that. They are working on an aftermarket LS1 head, but currently are purchasing cores from GM in bulk. This along with the fact that they have 3 CNC machines allows for mass production on their product, thus significantly cutting cost.
Now I am certain that these heads are not "massaged" to the degree that the other manufacturers heads are, but what cost is this to performance? In addition, I inquired about port velocity and his response was that the velocity is there due to keeping the port smaller.
Now if what he says is true, and his flow numbers are correct, then why purchase anyone elses heads?
My main question is this- how much faith can you put into flow numbers? I am aware that the only REAL way to determine this is to have a 3rd party take a test mule and under the exact same conditions, dyno each head on the same motor. Now since GMHTP has yet to do this, how do you determine which head to go with?
I am willing to pay for a TEA, or Absolute head if they will perform significantly better- hell if I honestly believed that MTI or GTP's astronomical prices were justifiable- I'd consider them as well (I am confident that this is not the case, 5 or 10 rwhp is not worth $1200-$1400)
Assuming that the flow numbers are accurate, what is the probability that the Patriot head would outperform the MTI or TEA head at the track or on the dyno?

Thanks in advance for all input.

Phil99vette

iTrader: (11)

There are soo many factors into building a great street or strip car. The flow #s at .600 that everyone is quoting you is really insignificant to most setups. Are you going to run a .600 lift cam? Probably not, so why are those #s the ones that everyone uses as a benchmark? I would do research into Combo's that work together. I have found that the Total Engine Airflow heads flow a A$$load of air through the exhaust with or without a pipe so naturally you would go with a cam that has more duration on the intake side. Some of the other's may require a cam that is ground straight up or even with a few more degrees of exhaust duration.

Bottom line is stick with a vendor that you feel comfortable with. Find someone who is willing to give you after the sale tech-support as well as provide a product that works. I have spent many hours on the phone with Brian @ Total Engine Airflow and he is a great guy. He has gone out of his way to help me out in my quest for a crazy street car where alot of other vendors wouldn't.

I would get cylinder heads from a vendor you comfortable with and have them recommend a cam that works with the heads you purchased not the latest and greatest LS1tech cam. I personally would love to see a set of Total Engine Airflow Stage 2 heads with ~60cc chambers, cometic .030 gasket, and 234/230 XER 110lsa cam. I think that combo would make crazy #s on the dyno and at the track. Drop me aline if you need any help.
Phillip

98TAauto

iTrader: (2)

either of the 3 companies you listed are straight up honest about there heads/flow numbers. AS usually has the best mid range flow, while TEA and AS usually peak about 300-306. No ones really cares about peak. I was amazed with AS's midrange numbers, but I never saw those shining through on the track for some reason?? Patriot is so new, no one has ET's yet. Espically in this weather. If you can wit for a AS or TEA GP this fall their prices will be in the 1300-1470 range But im with ya on the saving 1000bucks or so! Ive talked to Brent at TEA i dunno how many times. Ive talked with Jay at AS. Both great guys! I dont think you could go wrong with any of the 3 you listed. I just liked TEA's ETs better at the time I ordered

bodhi

I am actually going for a very similar setup. I was thinking about one of those three vendors STGII 5.3 head, 2.055"/1.60" with 987's and Ti retainers. The cam I am considering is a Comp XER 232/232-.595"/.595"-110 or put it on a 112 and install it 2+. Either way I don't know how close the PVC will be or whether the exhaust on a 114 would be too much. I wnat to put it on a 110 to keep the overall powerband down. I am really concerned about spinning the stock bottom end over 6600rpm. I would like for the cam to peak around 6400-6500 and shift at 6600.
I am really leaning toward the Patriot as of now, my only concern- as with everyone else, is the actual real life performance of the head. It performs even close to what they say, it would be worht every last penny. I would like to see a mule that has MTI or GTP or TEA or Absolute heads on it with dyno #'s, flow both heads on the same dyno, then put the others on the mule and compare apples to apples.
I was very impressed with Terry, Brent, and Jay. They were all very willing to talk to me in length and answer any questions. I don't think that customer service will be a problem with them. I cannot say the same for MTI- I have called them several times (when Chris was there) and it seemed to me that they had a "if you have to ask- then you can't afford it" attitude and very little help. I explained in detail what my goal was and where I wanted the car to be, and he insisted on the "hammer cam". I explained over and over again that that was not enough cam, but he said anymore and it would not be streetable. He also tried to convince me that a 3.73 in a Moser 12 bolt was the biggest gear they recommended- because any taller gear would break. I avoided them from then on. I don't know what's it's like over there now that Wayne has taken over, but you get my point.

99 Black Bird T/A

iTrader: (4)

As for flow numbers, unless they with the LS6 intake in place, I would regard them as pretty worthless regardless of who they come from. Almost no one will give out flow numbers with intake in place.

If you select TEA, I'd asked about the dished exhaust valve that increases exhaust flow a few more cfm. As for the exhaust numbers with the pipe, my TEA's flowed 250+ cfm with pipe. Without pipe my TEA's flowed 200cfm on exhaut.

bodhi

Okay- how accurate are dyno #'s. I know there are a ton of people that have dyno'd over 400rwhp with stock heads and I'm one of them. My car put out 406rwhp and 398 rwtq- with stock rear end. I thought this was really high as did most, but I ran the car at Houston Raceway Park and pulled a 12.6 et @ 118.7- 2.26 60ft on Nitto radials with stock 3.42's (not DR's).
Is this the only way to measure the true perofrmance of a head? If so- what kind of mph increase and et drop could be expected with the stg II head listed above and the cam I mentioned(driving abilities assumed)?

Do you think the 232/.595"/110 would be too much for stock cubes? Would it peak above 6600? Would the 112 CL be better? what about a 112 installed +2? Would the stock pistons need cutting?

Phil99vette

iTrader: (11)

I would assume your going with the Total Engine Airflow heads. Brian called me about these heads weeks ago. Apparently he is trying new seats and larger valves to increase flow. Send me an email if you want to talk more in depth.
Phillip
phillip_eclipse@hotmail.com

98TAauto

iTrader: (2)

these were my 1.5 5.3 TEA head flow's if they mean anything to ya'll

- Exhaust ----Intake
.100----51.7----70.2
.200----111.2---138.6
.300----167.6---201.1
.400----216.3---250.9
.500----248.0---282.5
.550----258.5---294.5
.600----265.6---302.2

mike m

iTrader: (6)

hey 98TAauto you keep saying you have yet to see AS track times, lemmie ask you something where are YOUR track times. lemmie guess waiting for better weather huh???? well so are alot of AS guys, right now it seems the show down is on the dyno. not at the track, come the fall talk track times. but until then stop using that excuse why you went with tea. you know how JFM's car is set up. it went 11.04. I would love to see one tea car that ran those times. or even close to it.

Inspector12

iTrader: (29)

Do a search on this "Tell me what you think of thesa flow numbers?" J ROD has a flow chart in there and they flow a number of heads stock ported LS6 ETC... with the intakes LS1 & LS6. It was good information. So good in fact I made a
copy of it on Excell so I would have it in cases such as yours. I am at work or I'd E-mail it to you to look at it is just more information to help make desisions with. I to am like you and did not want to spend the 24-2700 dollars for MTI's heads although I am sure they are great I bought a set of used Ported LS6 heads you can see my flow numbers in that post.I live near you we've talked before. Good luck let me know if you need heip with the install!

bodhi

I actually spoke to Brent about the 5.3 head with a Stg III port and 2.055/ 1.6 valves- with the cam I mentioned above. He sounded rather excited about the whole idea and was interested to see if it worked. Apparently he had a stock bottom end Vette at a local track meet that had a STG III head that amazed with it's times. It ran much better than anyone suspected with that big of a head on stock cube motor. This is where I wanna be. I'm getting sick of hearing "that's too much cam" when it seems that everyday someone is coming out with a bigger cam that makes more power with stock heads and "that's too much head- you don't need it, the stock cubes can't breathe with it" and then someone puts it on anyway and then it smokes the competition.
This motor has taken the last 50 years of small block V8 knowledge nad thrown it out the window. Stuff that was unheard of on the SB! or just flat wouldn't work is working like a charm on the LS1/6.
That's where I wanna be. The guy that makes the power and everyone stands around saying- no way. It CAN'T work that way.
I'm looking to do bascially what Jason did- run a forged bottom end in a stock cube motor and push it to it's max. There's a bunch more in there than what Jason did- I'm sure of it. It's too bad he got out of it. I respect what he did and would like to head that direction.

mike m

iTrader: (6)

tea heads on ebay
check out these flow #s they are pretty low. they were flowed on a superflow 600 bench

98TAauto

iTrader: (2)

we need to select a medium state, get 2 of each brand of heads made, and flow them on the same friggin bench with 20 eye witnesses. Maybe then we can see who really has the better flows LMAO

Phil99vette

iTrader: (11)

I had my TEA heads flowed by one of the biggest names in the LS1 world in Texas and they flowed 301 @ .550 and 303 @ .600. The exhaust flowed somewhere in the high 230s without a pipe. The owner of the bench was very impressed to say the least. He was actually fustrated at how a company can produce a cylinder head with these results for less than 1700.
Phillip

mike m

iTrader: (6)

hey phill99vette what flow bench did he have the same one as tea, find out what flow bench that this alleged "biggest names in the ls1 world in texas" uses. can you name this shop in texas? and tell us what bench they have.

JS

iTrader: (4)

Throwing around ET's,MPH and flow # are stupid.There's ALOT more info needed to compare different companies products.So pick your poison and stop the mine is better than yours crap.

Anyone can thow something together and run killer ET's but I'd rather give up a tenth for something reliable.Building a bomb or burning down the dyno is just plain nonsense.

LEO

iTrader: (3)

The most radical cam I've seen in h/c car has been a R1, 232/236 can't remember the lift, it's on a 112. The car didn't have good hp or tq till after about 4,500 rpm - but after that it pulls like a bat outta hell. I definitely wouldn't recommend that cam for a daily driver, but for track use with a 4.10+ gear it ought to work well.

mike m

iTrader: (6)

https://ls1tech.com/threads/showflat...art=3&vc=1 if you look in there 98taauto quoted tea brent in saying that tea heads will flow lower on a superflow bench. i know as a fact there are a few sponsors here that use a superflow bench and have similar #s to what tea gets on their own bench. it would be a nice comparo to take the 3 most popular heads and flow them all together. that would make a great magazine article.

js no one here is talking about reliabilty, just performance. and if i wanted relaiblity i would have bought a honda

bodhi

I've already sent GMHTP performance an email concerning this. I doubt seriously that we will get what we want from them. The only thing that could happen is SLP, MTI and More performance all submit heads and THEY ALL WORKED THE SAME!!!! OMG!!

j/k-
I'm just tired of GMHTP only writing about these companies and their cars. 90% of the articles feature something to do with one of these companies. I guess they are paying GMHTP bills so they get the good word.

Phil99vette

iTrader: (11)

Mike,
Sent a PM, The shop that flowed my heads is located in Houston Tx and they also sell stage 2 heads for 2399. You should be able to put 2 and 2 together. If I remember correctly it was on a Superflow 10something.
Phillip