Quickin

Chris,
What else can it be? Where's my oil goin?

Ragtop 99

iTrader: (7)

what color is the smoke? Blue is oil. Black is too much fuel. If it is black you could have a bad O2 sensor adding to your woes.

Chris is 100% correct. Mail order tuning, even Ed Wright, is hit or miss and that is especially true for a motor that is fairly unique like a big stroker. There are good places in Florida to get the car tuned in. It's time to get rid of the gestimate tuning.

Fix what you have and even with yor 242 cam you'll make the power you're after.

Quickin

Me and everyone else that has seen it has described it as blu-ish white smoke, so it's got to be oil. It doesn't have a raw fuel odor to it.

Wouldn't a dyno tune be a huge waste of time and $$$ with a motor thats burning massive oil?

I've checked everything that oil can be going, everything checks out fine, what else can I check? How else can smoke FROM OIL come out the pipes, if it's not the rings?

JF WS6

I don't think the tune will fix his excessive oil burning issue though. Quicken, you might also want to check out your cats and 02's after you get this sorted out as they might be crudded up now after having so much burned oil passing through them.

Quickin

The oil burn was from day one. What would have damaged my rings? For the first 2 months the motor never saw full throttle because my stock fuel pump started to fail at 4,800 rpm on the dyno, I never got a full pull. Granted the motor ran a little lean but it pulled 485 RWHP @ 5,000 rpm when the run was aborted. When my Racetronix set up came in and I had it installed I got a re-tune and the motors first full pull, it only dynoed 466 rwhp, one week later while doing about 80 I went WOT and I heard the first detonation at WOT, it was loud and sounded like the motor was falling through the engine bay onto the road. The second time was when I did an ATAP log on it. It hasn't seen WOT since. Except once when I put 100 octane in it to see if that would clear it up, and it did. But I still haven't gone WOT since.

So, oil burn was from day one. When I first had the car it was a perfectly smooth running monster, now it's a dog. The motor starts up and idles smooth every morning with the first bump of the key and runs smooth as hell all the time, I just can't go WOT, and it doesn't have anywhere near the power it did when I first got it.

Thats why everyone is leaning towards bad rings.

They built my motor from intake to oil pan.
Head gaskets on backwards I've been e-mailed by many people from this site over the past 2 months telling me there horror stories of ARE so it's no surprise. I also realize that no shop is perfect and mistakes are made. Wade has been real good to me about everything, I think it just may be best to have another shop go through it so I know exactly what I'm driving.

Thats what I have to do, only way to be sure whats in there or how the heads are ported.

Why do you think damage has occured? Like I said, it runs perfect, as long as I don't go WOT, which will cause it to detonate.

I'll definitely let everyone know what the problem was.

Later.

Quickin

[quote]
Good point, I definitely will. Does it mean I'll need new Random Tech high-flows, or can they be cleaned out like new?

JF WS6

Quicken, they actually may be fine, I was just suggesting to have someone check them out and make sure they are still good..... hopefully you won't need new cats (you might think about new front 02 sensors however for piece of mind) or maybe you can just go to straight pipes (ORP's) if you need to replace the cats, then later on if you wanted to replace them you could. I'm not sure if cats can be cleaned, but I doubt it.

Since you've had this oil burn issue from day one I'd suspect they didn't set the rings up right in your motor, or perhaps they just didn't use the most appropriate ones. I suspect your detonation issues and low power are mostly from the mail order tune however. I've heard quite a few horror stories in regard to Ed Wright tunes.... I suspect that once you get the rings fixed and get a decent set of heads on there (they may be fine as they are...) a bigger cam perhaps and then go straight to the dyno for tuning you'll see what that motor is capable of. Like I said, let us know how it turns out!

Quickin

Mike Norris will check everything out, he won't miss anything. Maybe 2 electris cut-outs where the cats are would be good

Well, since you brought it up. I've been told by many people and some shops that my ring gaps are reversed. I ordered this motor as a strict N/A street motor, supposedly my ring set is for a heavy nitrous motor.

I don't think anyone could tune a motor that wasn't internally running right though. And if I have oil blowing by my rings at WOT, the best tuner in the world would be handicapped.

Thats the ticket. The heads are going to Trevor Johnson for porting and I've already talked about installing the proper rings.
Side note: I was also supposed to have all Lunati parts, thats what I ordered, I don't have any. I have a Cola crank, Manley rods and Ross pistons. Not the fault of Wade or Barry, my order was taken by Nick I also made it VERY clear that I would not be using nitrous and to make sure it's set up that way. NOPE!!!!

So, whats the biggest cam I could go without having a loping monster but still get some gains over my 242/242 .610/.610 114 lsa?

Later.

JF WS6

Very cool. Well, you may not have any Lunati parts, but you didn't get crappy parts atleast. That stuff should hold up fine for you. I'm kind of out of my element with these big strokers so I don't know how helpful MO would be on cam choice, but logic tells me if your car idles like a stock 346 with a 242 cam I'd say you could go somewhat bigger for sure - although I'm sure some of the "tameness" at idle of the cam you have is from the LSA being a 114. You may have to sacrifice a little on the idle but I think you'd have a more useable power band with a 112, but the idle will be a little more rough of course. I think the suggestion that Ragtop 99 made of a 248/252 on a 112 maybe .612/.612 or so would get you a decent power increase. If you're afraid of that loping too much I don't think a 244/248 112 would hurt or maybe even a single pattern 248/248. You may want to do some consulting in that department however.

CHRISPY

How do you know your car is at 13:1??? Has it ever been wideband tuned on a dyno with the new motor?
You could have bad seals in the heads or anything now.

One thing I will suggest is that you have ARE look at the motor and not let anyone else take it apart. If someone else removes and tears down the motor ARE has no way to perform analysis themselves. This "could" impact any sort of work they may do for you.

When you test the pcv with the oil cap off also bring the revs up to about 2500rpm and see if there is suction then as well.

Did you get a fuel pump in the car afterwards? I think with bigger injectors your problem is solely with the tuning and not fuel volume. You better have a FP gauge on the car during dynoing to watch to see if it drops much below 58psi. I would book the dyno ASAP.

Chris

Pro Stock John

iTrader: (34)

I had my car at 12:1 A/F at WOT at the end. Now my setup was like 12.2:1. I did also go and try different timing settings and we put it at 26 degrees, the difference between that and 30 degrees was like 2rwhp.

Under load the A/F will be more like 13:1.

Most big motor providers will suggest at least a 12.5:1 AF.

JF WS6

Chris,

I totally agree with you on everything, but the oil burn issue won't be resolved with the dyno tune. For that he'd still have to take the engine apart... IMO it does sound like the rings being he has no evidence of oil around the TB or intake. He doesn't know that it's at 13:1, I'm sure that's just what Ed told him.

Does ARE have any sort of warranties on their engines? I don't think his is very old. If they would fix it free of charge then I would recommend the same that they do the tear down and replacement of the rings, or whatever else needs attention.

Ragtop 99

iTrader: (7)

I didn't mean to suggest that you do a wideband dyno tune right now. I was suggesting that when your oil issue is fixed and whatever mechanical / exhaust work is done, that you ditch the EW tuning and have a local shop do a proper tune.

Chicago Crew UnderBoss

iTrader: (1)

I certainly am no expert but have been hearing more and more rumblings about the 4.125 cranks leading to oil consumption problems,on LS1/LS6 superstroker motors.

I say ditch the 4.125 crank, go with a LUNATI 4.00 crank, and make 427 beautiful cubes, the same way that GM Racing Team makes 427 cubes. No doubt, the 4.00 crank on a LSXX Motor, is the best and most reliable PROVEN and BATTLE tested superstroker sized crank available which makes big power when matched with a big bore size like you have. Oh and by the way, if you have a CALLIES crank, ditch that and go with a LUNATI, as the LUNATI Crank is more reliable and compatibile on a LSXX motor from what i have seen recently.

Best of Luck.

Quickin

Ed and Mike Norris assured me that it was set there. My friends ATAP showed that A/F was fine to.

When I ordered the motor from NICK I told him the only way I would buy a motor from him is if there was a warranty shop close by me that could do warranty work, he said that Norris Motorsports can do ANY type of warranty work that may arise. He lied!!!!!! Just like all my Lunati parts, just like my motor would be done and shipped in 4 weeks (it took 9 months), and he sold my Grot headers to a former customer that were coming with my motor that I already paid for, I was just misled bigtime. THANK GOD Wade is an awesome guy and took care of me in a hurry after he found out about all this. I never wanted to ship my motor in and out of the country, like it was easy and cheap to do. This is the only reason I bought the motor from them. Same reason I didn't get the MMS 421 motor, no warranty shop here in FL. Norris does warranty work for MTI and LPE, he's just as good as any builder in this country, why can't he tear my motor down under warranty? Wade said he's more than willing to look at the motor and fix whatever is wrong, but the heads still need to be inspected and ported like there supposed to be and how am I to know what they really flow? I want my heads to flow 330 like they're supposed to. I've gotten some e-mails from people on this board and LS1.com saying that they also sent there motors back to ARE for repair work only to get a huge bill to fix it. This may have been in the Nick days, don't know.
It's just gonna be too easy to blame my problems on the tune or me, or whatever, then I'll be screwed because I don't have thousands to spend right now.
I'm sure things are different now with Wade running the show.
I want a 436 to run like one, thats all. I've learned the only way to make sure that all parts are perfect and that they're working to there max ability is to see to it yourself.

Still no suction. Am I supposed to have a little suction, or none? What if I have none?

The Racetronix set up went in, it was FP tested and in there words, "it's a monster pump".

I still haven't heard back from ARE (Barry or Wade) in about a month, I've e-mailed them several times with questions. I'll try again.

CHRISPY

But didn't you dyno and hit 485RWHP at 5000rpm?

That is more RWHP and Torque than a lot of 422 motors hit and you were going way lean above that. You had a 500RWHP motor there at peak.

I would take the motor to Norris and have them personally examine and test the entire PCV setup. Also have them do a leakdown test and compression test. That will tell you if it is rings and be done in about 1 hour. No need to tear the entire motor down. If it isnt PCV or rings it might be valve seals. They may be hurt from running the motor lean.

Good luck,
Chris

ps- I would still get the tune done.

Terry Burger

iTrader: (4)

Because at the home shop labor like that is $18-$22/hr while at an outside shop the same labor costs $55-$75/hr.

Quickin

But when I send a shop a check for $16,000 and they promise me that a shop near by can and will do ALL warranty work that arises, I can care less how much anyone charges per hour for work, it's not my problem. But now, things are my problem.

Shops need to start giving customers warranty info and guidlines in writing in the form of a legal contract so things can't change at will, which screws the customer.

Quickin

Correct, it was a monster when I first had it, spun the tires at 60 mph easily and ran perfect. Mike Norris and I both know that the massive oil burn began from day one. I thought it had to break in and it would chill out, it never did. When I took the 160 mile ride back to Norris for the re-tune (because now I had the Racetronix set-up installed) it burned 1 qrt. on that trip. This was after 2 months of driving it and keeping it under 5,000 rpm because of the stock fuel pump still being in there. The motor had NEVER detonated, pinged, rattled or NOTHING during these 2 months. It also seemed to slowly be losing power.
After the re-tune it only pulled 466/467 and the dyno numbers and everything showed it was just fine. The oil burn continued and then when I went WOT for the 1st time ever, it detonated at WOT. The opinion of many is that I had the detonation at WOT because of the oil getting by the rings at WOT, I never got detonation because I never went WOT with the stock fuel pump. The motor just kept getting weaker and weaker from there until I decided to just quit driving it so much.

Yup, ARE can build a beast, I just think I have one of the very few motors where the rings didn't seat properly (or the valve seals and guides). What else can it be?

I think thats the best course of action. Granted, the motor started running lean just before it hit that 485 number and the run was aborted, it still did a few other pulls in the high 470's and I think a 483 pull before things got too lean.

After the motor is confirmed to be perfectly sound.

CHRISPY

Do the leakdown and compression tests, verify PCV and then look at pulling a head to check out the seals etc.

Dont remove and tear down the whole motor yet. It may be unnecessary.
Chris