C5R block Vs. Darton wet sleeves
09-04-2003, 10:18 AM
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Re: C5R block Vs. Darton wet sleeves But BaddMood:
The wet block technology has been used in deisel engines for decades.... ...it works!
Given the number of reported cases of dropped dry sleeves, you must admit it is a risky affair.
If your telling us you believe the dry sleeves are stronger and will have fewer durablity issues, we respect your opinion, but YOU are in the minority camp....
As far as the comment from the designer of the Darton wet sleeves, he has no specific reason to hype the wets since Darton sells BOTH dry and wet systems.... if he says the wet sleeves are much better, I assume he has done lots of testing and that you can believe him...
The wet block technology has been used in deisel engines for decades.... ...it works!
Given the number of reported cases of dropped dry sleeves, you must admit it is a risky affair.
If your telling us you believe the dry sleeves are stronger and will have fewer durablity issues, we respect your opinion, but YOU are in the minority camp....
As far as the comment from the designer of the Darton wet sleeves, he has no specific reason to hype the wets since Darton sells BOTH dry and wet systems.... if he says the wet sleeves are much better, I assume he has done lots of testing and that you can believe him...
09-04-2003, 11:23 AM
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Re: C5R block Vs. Darton wet sleeves Hey all,
Sorry for the delay in responding. I don't get on here as much as I want, too busy with that work thing...
The aluminum 6.0 blocks I have is the result of luck. I buy groups of parts from various vendors to get the little stuff (covers, etc). No, I don't re-use stressed bolts!!! Anyway the blocks came in shipments of these parts. The casting number on both is the same, but I haven't found a reference to it anywhere.
If the 6.0 alum is a go on the C6, that is a relief, as the "King Kong" buildup in HotRod, etc. was really pushing the 5.7 block. I couldn't understand how GM was going to put this is 50 or so C6's and not end up with parts scattered across this land of ours. BTW, my understanding of this special model 'vette run is to allow GM to homologate an engine capable of larger CI's for LeMans-type racing.
Back on the subject of the Darton block, it's always interesting when questions like this arise, as they lead to the inevitable, "I have a friend who heard about a guy" comments. Not that the stories are untrue, it's that they are rarely backed by actual experiences with actual information about the actual item being currently discussed. Tales of previous issues are reason to be cautious, but not necessarily germaine to the current versions (Comp 918 springs???).
I currently have five Darton-based projects either done or in the works and haven't seen any problems. One that is in the build stage is going to put the engine in an environment unlike it has ever seen to my knowledge. It will be seeing abuse that makes the 24 hour races look like one long freeway trip. I'd like to go into it some more, and I will once it gets in the vehicle and through its first competition. Don't want to take the element of surprise away from the guys paying the $$$$$$$ to do it. I really would like to go into some of the other stories about the Darton block I've seen here, but as I was not actually a participant in these "events", I feel it would simply put me in the very spot that I preach others should avoid also.
Probably caused more questions by this post than supplied answers you wanted, but hope it helps.
Sorry for the delay in responding. I don't get on here as much as I want, too busy with that work thing...
The aluminum 6.0 blocks I have is the result of luck. I buy groups of parts from various vendors to get the little stuff (covers, etc). No, I don't re-use stressed bolts!!! Anyway the blocks came in shipments of these parts. The casting number on both is the same, but I haven't found a reference to it anywhere.
If the 6.0 alum is a go on the C6, that is a relief, as the "King Kong" buildup in HotRod, etc. was really pushing the 5.7 block. I couldn't understand how GM was going to put this is 50 or so C6's and not end up with parts scattered across this land of ours. BTW, my understanding of this special model 'vette run is to allow GM to homologate an engine capable of larger CI's for LeMans-type racing.
Back on the subject of the Darton block, it's always interesting when questions like this arise, as they lead to the inevitable, "I have a friend who heard about a guy" comments. Not that the stories are untrue, it's that they are rarely backed by actual experiences with actual information about the actual item being currently discussed. Tales of previous issues are reason to be cautious, but not necessarily germaine to the current versions (Comp 918 springs???).
I currently have five Darton-based projects either done or in the works and haven't seen any problems. One that is in the build stage is going to put the engine in an environment unlike it has ever seen to my knowledge. It will be seeing abuse that makes the 24 hour races look like one long freeway trip. I'd like to go into it some more, and I will once it gets in the vehicle and through its first competition. Don't want to take the element of surprise away from the guys paying the $$$$$$$ to do it. I really would like to go into some of the other stories about the Darton block I've seen here, but as I was not actually a participant in these "events", I feel it would simply put me in the very spot that I preach others should avoid also.
Probably caused more questions by this post than supplied answers you wanted, but hope it helps.
09-05-2003, 10:30 AM
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Re: C5R block Vs. Darton wet sleeves Scott:
You speak volumes but I can't say I have learned anything from your post... ...you should run for governor of Commiefornia...
...By the way, the Darton wet sleeves are very competivitely priced compared with the dry sleeves offered by Agastino, MTI and others ...in fact, in some cases, it is less expensive
You speak volumes but I can't say I have learned anything from your post... ...you should run for governor of Commiefornia...
...By the way, the Darton wet sleeves are very competivitely priced compared with the dry sleeves offered by Agastino, MTI and others ...in fact, in some cases, it is less expensive
09-05-2003, 12:28 PM
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Re: C5R block Vs. Darton wet sleeves Robert
First of all we are not talking about deisel engines are we!! We are however talking about ls1 and ls6 engines.I was chatting with Ed Potter a while back and he said himself they were having trouble at the 500 hp level (flywheel). This type of sleeve relies on the cylinder head for all its strength and we all know that at higher power levels the cylinder head bolts are having a hard time as it is! Do you want to have to rely on the cylinder head holding your block together there is no support between the inner and outer walls of the block therefor the cylinder head is suposed to hold the block together GOOD LUCK!!!As for the guy who believes that street driving is harder on a motor then beating the crap out of a motor in what ever type of racing you chose then why do we not rebuild our street cars every week. Bottom line until these wet sleeves are proven like the dry sleeves and I mean at the 1000+ mark I personly will stick with the dry sleeve from the 1 or 2 companies who have proven in the last couple of years that they work and are reliable
First of all we are not talking about deisel engines are we!! We are however talking about ls1 and ls6 engines.I was chatting with Ed Potter a while back and he said himself they were having trouble at the 500 hp level (flywheel). This type of sleeve relies on the cylinder head for all its strength and we all know that at higher power levels the cylinder head bolts are having a hard time as it is! Do you want to have to rely on the cylinder head holding your block together there is no support between the inner and outer walls of the block therefor the cylinder head is suposed to hold the block together GOOD LUCK!!!As for the guy who believes that street driving is harder on a motor then beating the crap out of a motor in what ever type of racing you chose then why do we not rebuild our street cars every week. Bottom line until these wet sleeves are proven like the dry sleeves and I mean at the 1000+ mark I personly will stick with the dry sleeve from the 1 or 2 companies who have proven in the last couple of years that they work and are reliable
09-05-2003, 01:36 PM
#65
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Re: C5R block Vs. Darton wet sleeves If
Might
Should
Hold on.
Who has a Darton wet sleeve block in their car right now? Right now.
I've seen the wet sleeve being posted as being under R&D for like TWO years.
Let's drop the "I have one going in" or "They should" stuff because I don't care. Who has a wet sleeve block who has 2500-5000 miles on it?
I'm not a hater, it's just foolish to say it's better than a C5R block when you look at how they run those blocks in One Lap or at Lemans. I dare you to put a wet sleeve block in a car like that and run it like that for 24 hours.
I know that the C5R block is the standard. Sleeving is the affordable countersolution that strives to meaure up to a C5R block. The end.
Might
Should
Hold on.
Who has a Darton wet sleeve block in their car right now? Right now.
I've seen the wet sleeve being posted as being under R&D for like TWO years.
Let's drop the "I have one going in" or "They should" stuff because I don't care. Who has a wet sleeve block who has 2500-5000 miles on it?
I'm not a hater, it's just foolish to say it's better than a C5R block when you look at how they run those blocks in One Lap or at Lemans. I dare you to put a wet sleeve block in a car like that and run it like that for 24 hours.
I know that the C5R block is the standard. Sleeving is the affordable countersolution that strives to meaure up to a C5R block. The end.
09-05-2003, 01:42 PM
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Re: C5R block Vs. Darton wet sleeves Hey PSJ are you saying a resleeved ls1 will never take the beating that a C5R will.BTW how are you making out with your project car??
09-05-2003, 03:04 PM
#68
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Re: C5R block Vs. Darton wet sleeves "Hey PSJ are you saying a resleeved ls1 will never take the beating that a C5R will."
If that's what he's saying then I would tend to agree...until it's well proven otherwise. The C5R is currently the block of choice when the power gets serious.
If that's what he's saying then I would tend to agree...until it's well proven otherwise. The C5R is currently the block of choice when the power gets serious.
09-05-2003, 03:07 PM
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Re: C5R block Vs. Darton wet sleeves I have darton wet sleeves on my car now and slightly over 5k miles --I think there are quite a few of us, as ARE, cartek and a number of others are using darton wet sleeves from what I understand.
09-05-2003, 03:22 PM
#71
Re: C5R block Vs. Darton wet sleeves I dont think ARE uses the Darton wet sleeves. I know the process they have used successfully, and it sure doesnt sound like the wet sleeves.
The C5R block is not a re-sleeved block. The aluminum is cast around the sleeves like in a stock block. I dont have any reason to believe that that is not the strongest method out there. Im pretty sure I can say that MTI has resleeved more blocks than the rest of the LS1 vendors combined. I know what they do, and I know it isnt the Darton wet inserts. I do not have reason to believe that the Darton wet sleeve doesnt work, I just have evidence that ARE and MTI have gotten a system down that does. However what those two do is not something the average machine shop could even try. It sounds to me that the Darton wet system is somethign that a smaller shop can do. That may be the value of the system...Its available to the smaller shops.
Who of us who have bought re-sleeved blocks in the last year or so wish they had done somethign differently? Who owns resleeved blocks and has no problems, and where was that from adn what type? Those are the only legitimate questions to ask if you are trying to assemble a solid decision.
chris
The C5R block is not a re-sleeved block. The aluminum is cast around the sleeves like in a stock block. I dont have any reason to believe that that is not the strongest method out there. Im pretty sure I can say that MTI has resleeved more blocks than the rest of the LS1 vendors combined. I know what they do, and I know it isnt the Darton wet inserts. I do not have reason to believe that the Darton wet sleeve doesnt work, I just have evidence that ARE and MTI have gotten a system down that does. However what those two do is not something the average machine shop could even try. It sounds to me that the Darton wet system is somethign that a smaller shop can do. That may be the value of the system...Its available to the smaller shops.
Who of us who have bought re-sleeved blocks in the last year or so wish they had done somethign differently? Who owns resleeved blocks and has no problems, and where was that from adn what type? Those are the only legitimate questions to ask if you are trying to assemble a solid decision.
chris
09-05-2003, 03:26 PM
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Re: C5R block Vs. Darton wet sleeves
I have darton wet sleeves on my car now and slightly over 5k miles --I think there are quite a few of us, as ARE, cartek and a number of others are using darton wet sleeves from what I understand.
Hellooooooooooooooooooooo
Paul
09-05-2003, 05:09 PM
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Re: C5R block Vs. Darton wet sleeves Question #1;
Why has LPE - Ed Potter picked the Darton wet sleeved block to market over a dry sleeve block?
Darton sells BOTH wet and dry sleeved systems; they discuss the wet system and indicate it has many advantages over the dry system including:
1. Better thermal properties
2. Better strength
3. Ability to handle higher pressure levels
4. No chance of a dropped sleeve
5. Can be bored larger then a dry sleeve
6. Has a thicker ductile iron wall
....and on and on and on....
Question #2:
Why would Darton, who sells both wet and dry sleeves state the wet system is clearly superiour if it was not?
Why has LPE - Ed Potter picked the Darton wet sleeved block to market over a dry sleeve block?
Darton sells BOTH wet and dry sleeved systems; they discuss the wet system and indicate it has many advantages over the dry system including:
1. Better thermal properties
2. Better strength
3. Ability to handle higher pressure levels
4. No chance of a dropped sleeve
5. Can be bored larger then a dry sleeve
6. Has a thicker ductile iron wall
....and on and on and on....
Question #2:
Why would Darton, who sells both wet and dry sleeves state the wet system is clearly superiour if it was not?
09-05-2003, 05:15 PM
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Re: C5R block Vs. Darton wet sleeves As far as the superior block, I assume the C5R is king. My problem, which is similar to many, is that I beleive the $6K cost is a king's ransom...
Someone like Donovan should produce a competing block for 1/2 the price; people would beat down their door to get it...
...At this point I can safely say that neither the wet or dry resleeving is without risk...agreed?
Someone like Donovan should produce a competing block for 1/2 the price; people would beat down their door to get it...
...At this point I can safely say that neither the wet or dry resleeving is without risk...agreed?
09-05-2003, 05:26 PM
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Re: C5R block Vs. Darton wet sleeves I don't understand the claims made here that the dry-sleeved system has been perfected for at least one or two years.
I have read here about one member who RECENTLY purchased a dry-sleeved short block from a certain sponsor. He drove it 500 miles and it dropped a sleeve. The engine was shipped back to the seller who refused to warranty the work.
Now if that is not enough risk for you guys who like dry sleves, you should move to Las Vegas and become a black-jack dealer.
I have read here about one member who RECENTLY purchased a dry-sleeved short block from a certain sponsor. He drove it 500 miles and it dropped a sleeve. The engine was shipped back to the seller who refused to warranty the work.
Now if that is not enough risk for you guys who like dry sleves, you should move to Las Vegas and become a black-jack dealer.
09-05-2003, 05:26 PM
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Re: C5R block Vs. Darton wet sleeves I have a question from earlier, it was mentioned that a sleeve can be replaced if something happens to the cylinder. Is this true for all sleeved blocks? or is this just a darton wet thing?
09-05-2003, 05:31 PM
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Re: C5R block Vs. Darton wet sleeves The Darton wet-sleeve is supposed to allow you to replace an individual sleeve if something happens...
I assume that if "something happens" you will need to replace the entire motor and not just the individual sleeve. ...sort of like an empty promise; right?
...like if your timing chain goes the manufacturor will agree to give you a new chain (big deal - my motor is destroyed!)...
I assume that if "something happens" you will need to replace the entire motor and not just the individual sleeve. ...sort of like an empty promise; right?
...like if your timing chain goes the manufacturor will agree to give you a new chain (big deal - my motor is destroyed!)...
09-05-2003, 05:34 PM
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Re: C5R block Vs. Darton wet sleeves Thats what i was wondering, If something goes like a rod, or a broken spring and the valve drops and it blows up the piston, I doubt that there will only be one cylinder thats messed up.... It happend to my friend and he messed up 3 cylinders, so I guess its cheaper getting the new sleeves than a whole new block and new sleeves.
09-05-2003, 05:51 PM
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Re: C5R block Vs. Darton wet sleeves I agree with PSJ. Once this block is in my car (whenever the heck that will be) and it is pushing at least 800RWHP with the F1 full-time for 5000 miles with some track time, then I'll start saying how great it is. Until then, my trust lies in Darton and MMS to get it all done right. 
We'll see...
We'll see...
09-05-2003, 07:20 PM
#80
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Re: C5R block Vs. Darton wet sleeves "I have read here about one member who RECENTLY purchased a dry-sleeved short block from a certain sponsor. He drove it 500 miles and it dropped a sleeve. The engine was shipped back to the seller who refused to warranty the work."
I'm not convinced that's the whole story (as in WHY the seller refused to warranty the work.) I think that person should email PSJ his version of the story so that a little investigating can be done.
Our sponsors are pretty good about making stuff right with the customers.
I'm not convinced that's the whole story (as in WHY the seller refused to warranty the work.) I think that person should email PSJ his version of the story so that a little investigating can be done.
Our sponsors are pretty good about making stuff right with the customers.