I've been trying to sort this all out. It seems that budget heads are really GM heads but have been machined by the likes of Patriot, TSP, Livernois, and others. Premium heads are really called such because they are proprietary castings and therefor superior because these aftermarket companies know how to build cylinder heads for GM vehicles better than GM is able to.

It seems to call budget heads Patriots or TSPs or Livernois is really a misnomer because they are afterall GM heads no matter who works on them. So budget heads are GM heads and premium heads are anything not cast by GM?

Also it seems to me that a major reason for the extra cost of premium heads is the fact that a lot of research, development, and tooling has gone into the creation of a unique design. It doesn't seem that greater power output is the reason for the extra cost, or at least not a major across-the-board improvement over the machined GM heads. So it seems that a lot of research and extra expense has gone into sort of trying to reinvent the wheel when the original wheel was good enough. Is that fair or not?

It would seem logical that someone would purchase heads for the sole purpose of making more power, but yet premium heads are purchased and installed even when they don't seem to make more power, or nothing dramatic over budget, er, GM heads, machined GM heads.

So my question is, in a round-about-way, is the appeal of premium heads the fact that they are not cast by GM, and are therefor more "exotic" and more desirable even if they don't make more power? Is it sort of like buying a Rolex watch when a Bulova would get the same job done, or maybe like buying an Apple computer when a PC would get the exact same job done for less money? Is it more about status than performance? Enlighten me please. Thanks.

 

Those so called premium heads are premium because of the R&D involved. The reinvent the wheel analogy is a bit loose to use on heads as heads such as the AFR 205 have shown that you can improve on the design.

Also while people tend to toss peak numbers around, you have to examine the whole graph, not just the final value or you miss some vital pieces of data that show why so and so heads do better.

Finally, no one's forcing you to spend money. You have a choice, budget heads exist based on the GM design yet they still have improved that somewhat. GM doesn't make things for max power, they make them for max profit.

 

Ported GM heads are a great choice for 75% (random number that just popped into my mind) of the members on this forum - being street cars that get occasional dragstrip runs and under cover stoplight-to-stoplight action. People are making great numbers in the 430-460 hp range with these heads (both 5.7 and LS6 castings). It seems to me that the aftermarket heads rule above say 450 rwhp naturally aspirated, but even they need a well thought out selection of parts and careful attention to detail while assembling to get the big numbers. Pick your realistic power goal, choose your heads based on that goal and your budget, select a cam to compliment the heads, and get the tune. But basic supporting bolt-ons should be considered a pre-requisite to heads/cam.

 

<budget heads exist based on the GM design yet they still have improved that somewhat. GM doesn't make things for max power, they make them for max profit.>

Isn't it more accurate to say that so-called budget heads are GM's design as opposed to "based on the GM design"? Afterall, Patriot and TSP didn't design anything, they just hog-out a bunch of aluminum.

And aren't GM's heads/ Corvette heads unfairly called "budget" (which is a way of disparaging them) merely because cost decreases as supply increases? I mean if a company makes and sells 100,000 widgets, obviously they can charge less than the company that only makes 1,000 widgets.

 

The 243's are budget heads now, but back when they first designed them they were premium heads if you think about it. Sodium filled valve stems, higher lift springs, made the best power at the time. Now that they have manufacturing costs down, they really are budget heads. They went to normal valves now and mated them to just about every normal engine they can. My 5.3 Monte has these heads so yeah I'd say almost budget performance.

I still think that since patriot and all those other companies make changes to the stock heads, they are indeed changing the design. The act of porting them changes the flow characteristics a good amount. To say they just "hogged" out the excess aluminum diminishes the CNC work put into the porting of these heads. Just recently it was found that a stock TB could be optimized to flow better and was CNC'd and actually does better than the run of the mill porting job we all tend to do to our TB's.

While they aren't reinventing the wheel, would you run your car 100+mph on something designed back in the 20's? Design improvement is just as important as innovation and as long as you don't try to market it as a new innovation which these companies do not, then I feel that it is alright.

 

PRCs, Patriots, ect. are great heads. They make great power for the price you get them for. They make good peak numbers but as said before its also lower end power that should be considered.I would have loved to have had the money for some Trick Flows when doing my h/c, but decided since my car is a dd street car that sometimes sees track time I would stay with a budget build.

When the day comes that I can afford to build a track car I will for sure go for AFRs or TFS heads in an effort to make all out power, but for now I have a nice, very drivable 440+rwhp and when im ready for more ill build a forged shortblock for N20!

 

Fair enough SladeX, you make some excellent points.

It seems that the companies that machine the GM heads aren't so much "changing the design" but maximizing the design, by increasing the size of the openings on a pre-existing design, more or less. And maybe you could look at it as GM's design is so good, in it's basic form, that by just altering the flow it holds up to proprietary designs by companies that are completely devoted to just cylinder heads. Amazing really, and seemingly unfairly labeled as "budget." And if these GM heads didn't exist, none of these proprietary designs would exist either. Don't they owe GM at least a nod for even being able to be in business?

Thanks for your replies.

 

I was very happy with my stg 1 PRC ls6 heads, infact I made 460 rwhp with them and an ms3 cam. 414 rwtq to boot.

And thennnnnnnnn one of them turned out to be defective.... The whole rocker arm/shaft broke. TSP says they cam from a bad batch in 2005.

Unfort for me, I bought them used from a board member, so they wont help me out with replacement heads.

Strangely I'm still considering buying another set of heads from them, they say that PRC knew that was a weekpoint from those old castings and improved on it.

Yep....

 

The most important things are the port design (actually the port designer), the accurate duplication of the master ports, the valve job, the other valvetrain parts (valves, springs, retainers, rockers, pushrods) and a cam matched to the entire engine/vehicle system. Done correctly on a 243 GM casting this could be called a "super premium" headcam package (H/C) if it performed better than most others. You could expect to pay a "super premium" price to get the performance.

You could also achieve the "super premium" performance from an aftermarket casting as long as the correct ports and valvetrain parts were used. Most often the aftermarket heads' ability to make power can be improved by the correct modification (aka porting). Of course they could also be made to produce less power by the incorrect modification as could the OEM castings.

You may not always get what you pay for (especially in heads and cams) but you rarely, if ever get something really good that you don't pay (well) for. I suggest that if someone tells you that you will get "super premium" power, etc. from a "budget" package they are not being completely honest with you.

For you spirits drinkers, comparing Captain Morgan spiced rum and a lesser known brand called Sailor Jerry makes a good analogy. Sailor Jerry costs about 20% more than Captain Morgan, but it tastes smoother and has 31% more aclohol (92 proof vs. 70 proof). Actually it is less expensive per ml of alcohol so you can use less in a drink or if you use the same amount as you would Captain, you'll get "there" faster. The better taste is just a plus.

The Captain outsells the Sailor by orders of magnitude, but enough descerning (smart) folks buy the Sailor to make it profitable for both the manufacturer and the retail outlet. This is a very interesting comparison to head/cam manufacturers/sellers.

I am involved with both retail booze sales and aftermarket head/cam production and sale. Not everyone is a good candidate for Sailor Jerry, which is fine by me. Those few who want more bang for the buck as well as better taste are often happy when they switch to Sailor Jerry. Substitute "power" for "bang" and "drivability" for "better taste" if the analogy is a little obtuse.

Bottom line is that it's not the origin of the casting that makes the biggest difference or the most power/torque or even the total package price. Rather it is what is done to it that counts. Lots of things in life are like that.

My $.02.

Jon

 

LOL the Captain Jerry reference ( though I have never tried it but I totally understand)!! Good post!!! Talked to Cap'n Morgan recently!!!

 

I find the R&D statement amusing, considering GM was designing the gen3 heads on a blank computer screen when the aftermarket was still creaming their shorts over the "new" Vortec deigns and TPIS mini rams swapped onto tuned port cars. LOL.

Aftermarket companys don't answer to the EPA or have the kind of production and durability requirements to maintain like the OE manufacturer. So obviously they will find ways to tweak an existing design for more power.

 

sailor jerry is great man tried it once while visiting my gf at ollege. also captian morgan is for high school kids who dont know any better just lika bacardi. oh **** going to get flamed now.

 

<I am involved with both retail booze sales and aftermarket head/cam production and sale. Not everyone is a good candidate for Sailor Jerry, which is fine by me. Those few who want more bang for the buck as well as better taste are often happy when they switch to Sailor Jerry. Substitute "power" for "bang" and "drivability" for "better taste" if the analogy is a little obtuse.>

Very interesting reply Jon, and thankyou for taking the time.

It seems to me that your Captain Morgan/ Sailor Jerry analogy is spot-on because it leaves options for translation. A common criticism of aftermarket heads is the "power/ bang-for-the-buck" part of the equation, and your metaphor/ analogy plays along with it. The people that have no doubt about the power production of their premium heads, compared to "budget" heads, as well as the doubters of premium heads would find satisfaction, that's why your comparison works, and is ultimately fair. Thankyou.

 

<Aftermarket companys don't answer to the EPA or have the kind of production and durability requirements to maintain like the OE manufacturer. So obviously they will find ways to tweak an existing design for more power.>

That's pretty much the way I see it too. Imagine if GM had the same freedom as the aftermarket, their heads would most likely smoke the aftermarket designs, and still sell for pennys on the dollar. Thanks.

 

One of the many reasons I enjoy Jon's postings (beyond the obvious technical content), it his proper use of the English language. How many other postings on LS1Tech have used the word "obtuse", especially in the proper context. Well done sir.

edit - well, I did a search on the word "obtuse", and it pulled up 2 pages worth of threads. A random check showed several of the references were other posts from Jon plus a couple mis-used attempts.

 

A little off topic...

Captain Morgan sells pretty much across the age range up to late 50s. The younger (under 35 crowd) buys most of it in my experience. There are lower priced "knockoffs" but they don't sell nearly as well as the Captain. My point is that advertising works! "Captain 'n Coke" is heard hundreds of times more than "Spiced rum 'n cola", but some bars will substitute lower priced stuff and still charge you for the "C 'n C". Very few will suggest "Sailor Jerry 'n Coke" for a better taste/buzz even at a premium price. Personally I think they are missing an opportunity.

Could it be that some folks just want to have a head and cam package on their cars for bragging rights rather than large actual performance increases? I suppose so.

Perhaps not so far OT after all...


Jon

 

In an article by GM High Tech Performance, our factory 243 casting which is CNC'd in-house was compared to the AFR, Dart, Edelbrock, and Trickflow heads and came in second to the Trickflow. The Trickflow made only 8 more HP than our factory casting on the engine dyno.

In the article, they stated "On the flow bench, the Livernois LS2 head kept right up with the out-of-the-box aftermarket units, flowing in excess of 320 cfm at .600-inch lift. And that doesn’t come at the expense of good low lift flow, so the torque and good street manners are still there."

Read the article here

Please let us know if you have any questions. These heads are on the shelf, ready to ship.

Thank you

Regards,

Rick LeBlanc
Livernois Motorsports

 

Sailor Jerry is head and shoulders above Captain Morgans in my opinion. Sorry to hijack. But it makes your analogy, to me, that much more easily understood.

-J

 

Try captain morgan special blend, or the upcoming captain morgan hundred..

CM is diageo's leading rum across all demographics. Theyre both similarly priced, but both have unique tastes. As far as quality goes, captain morgan is far more consistent. Both are tasty tho

 

Hmm interesting. I will have to give a shot next time I go to pick something up... thanks for the recommendation

-J