98blackSS

I just ordered one yesterday for our C5 LS7 project to play around with

Louis

iTrader: (7)

Walker, I may have a table for you, but it isnt a .HPT file...

As for that thread by Chad, that is Christians car, Ru200N3r here. Its a new LGM cam built with stock heads/stock CR in mind. We are very happy with the results considering the gain over the F13 previously. I will make a separate post regarding that.

At 1AM before his dyno, the 4" tubing that was ordered (to take the place of the 75mm maf) didnt show up, and I couldnt make it down there so I lent him the LPE 100mm MAF off my car to simply take the place of his old unit.

We knew that it (75mm maf)was a restriction, and 99% of the people out there junk the MAF outright for SD however no one has ever recorded gains from a pure back to back MAF swap.

Louis

Walker Morgan

That would be awesome. I just need the transfer functions soI can get this thing close enough to start with.

C Murda

iTrader: (24)

where can i go to see this maf??i went to the lingenfelter website and i couldnt find it...

Katech_Jason

iTrader: (19)

http://www.lingenfelter.com/store/lp..._lpe-4232.html

Bink

98blackSS - Any updates? What were your results with the 100mm MAF?

bigdsz

iTrader: (1)

Slightly off topic, but where do you find a 90-100 mm lid?

fenix999

iTrader: (17)

i dont think anybody makes one...yet anyways... biggest ive heard about was the 85mm air lid which is pretty close

slt200mph

iTrader: (42)

The only place they are available is on phantasy island ... .. A company was supposed to make some but it never happened... there was a thread on here that lasted well over a year on the subject.. they never materialized ..

Beaflag VonRathburg

iTrader: (176)

Anyone have pictures of how they've run the tubing? I'm just wondering how people are going from a 75mm lid, to a 100mm maf, to a 90mm tb. I think it would be nice if someone finally took the hint and made everything match. A 100mm composite intake and a larger (90ish mm) lid would be extremely nice.

beardWS6

iTrader: (1)

I went with SD tuning and got rid of it. Ialso went with a differant filter set-up to help with air flow.

68Firebird428wEFI

iTrader: (1)

Here are results for an 85mm GM MAF compared to the 100mm ID MAF housing with a hitachi slot style MAF sensor (i.e. GM's newest MAF sensor).

Car/engine: 68 Firebird 428 ci engine convertied to multiport mass air EFI. E-brock torker II bung mod'd manifold, 30 lb/hr injectors, ~375hp.

The experiment is as follows. Airflow through the engine at wot and under full load is monitored by the output of the MAF and logged in real time along with engine RPM, with and without the 85mm MAF in place. The ECM is using the newly calibrated 100mm MAF as the MAF input signal in both cases. When the 85mm sensor in place it is in series with the 100mm MAF. To be clear, the 85mm is only being used as a restrictor plate, its wires are not connected to anything. Therefore we can trust the reading as they are from the same sensor in both cases.

The data below is converted into SCFM and is for a third gear pull at wot from 3k to 6k rpm WITH and WITHOUT the 85mm MAF in place. Each curve (data column here, don't know how to post images...) is an average of three runs (spread is tight run to run in each case). Same stretch of road, same day, time and ECT.

this a subset of the actual data, but shows the general trend:
with 85mm w/OUT 85mm MAF
RPM SCFM SCFM
3000 235 255
3500 290 295
4000 355 372
4500 410 446
5000 465 493
5500 495 540
6000 535 573

The 85mm MAF is a 7-8% flow constriction. Accelerometer and (rpm increase)/(unit time) data both support these data. I.e. the car is 8% slower with the 85mm MAF in place.

This translates to ~30 hp loss with the 85mm MAF bottleneck.

To get the full effect of the larger sensor, you need ALL your intake tubing to be 4" ID or larger as well as a high flowing air filter. To achieve this i made it all from scratch with fiberglass. Air filter is a 6.5" OD by 10" long K&N low restriction monster. I have pics, just give me ur email i'll send.

Fb0dy0nly

iTrader: (10)

How can you say that = 30hp loss?
Can we get this whole thing in "Layman's" terms please? haha thanks

Every other post with dyno graphs or electronic info is showing closer to 5-10hp gain, I would guess even less on smaller displacment like stock Ls1/2.

agree on the whole crazy different sizes for people who need a nice massive flowing filter,maf,tb setup for their bigger cubes. having to search to find parts that are close in size and also making sure they have similar flowing abilities seems hard and can be frustrating for those wanting to squeeze out every last pony or those not getting enough air in as their only setback.

69LT1Bird

iTrader: (1)

I have to call BS on this too.

Put it on the dyno and prove the loss of HP. You only showed that a 100mm pipe flows more than a 85mm pipe. That is pretty easy to figure put.

How many CFM's does your engine need to make maximum power? My 6.0L is probably in the 750-800 CFM range. I have 4" tubing, filter, elbow and a 90mm throttle body that flows 1050 cfm, if the 85mm MAF flows 10% less I am still over my required maximum. Its an air pump and it only needs what it needs if its a non-FI engine.

A better way to test your setup is the dyno it and watch the MAP readings to see if there really is a restriction and if that restrict is causing you to lose horsepower or not.

That 428 should be making more horsepower than 375 shouldn't it?

68Firebird428wEFI

iTrader: (1)

Obviously you don't know what you're talking about. You're right about it being an air pump. But you're wrong about "it only needs what it needs if its a non-FI engine" like there is some critical limit or something. WRONG. MORE AIR MEANS MORE FUEL BURNED. POWER IS DIRECTLY PROPORTIONAL TO THE AIR FLOW (assuming constant AFR throught-which is the case in the experiment).

WHAT DOES NITROUS DO? IT ALLOWS YOU TO BURN MORE FUEL.

Anyways, call BS if you want. That's the data. Take it for what it is. If i get it dynoed i'll re post. To remind you, accelerometer data and (rpm increase)/(unit time) both support the data. More informed readers should appreciate the experiment.

As far my 428 only having 375 hp, i have to blame the stock Pontiac heads.

Here's other proof. With the carb i turned 109 mph in the 1/4. With EFI (the 85mm MAF) i'm turning 106-107. Haven't had it at the track yet with the 100mm MAF, but i'll let you know if do. Not that i expect everyone to believe me.

I'm not a huge forum buff, but i carefully gathered the data in my search for my missing horsepower. So i figured i would share it. Raw experimental evidence. I'm convinced, and I'm now happy with my EFI.

68Firebird428wEFI

iTrader: (1)

To answer where i get the ~30HP number from: I'm assuming HP is directly proportional to airflow. Anyone have time paired SCFM measurements on a dyno run want to chime in on that assumption?

If i get it dynoed, it looks i have an experiment to run.

Petraszewsky

iTrader: (28)

Hmm..interesting read...I planned on using the LS7 MAF with a 4in I.D. Aluminum intake housing...With some work it can be done and turn out much cheaper than the LPE....

68Firebird428wEFI

iTrader: (1)

Also, I feel it important to point out that in my setup the 85mm MAF is mounted
differently than it would be in the stock LSx configuration. It's a part of the Mass-flo EFI system that is made to work with a normal carb style air cleaner. Sitting directly atop the carb style throttle body with no tubing leading up to it like it would normally. I imagine this creates unecessary turbulence, which may well explain the large effect I'm seeing. It could very well be that just mounting the 85mm MAF properly in a tube would bring the two closer together, and may lead to the 5-10 HP effect typically seen like Fb0dy0nly mentioned.

The throttle body that comes with the Mass-flo EFI system is a 1000 CFM 4 by 1.75" holley style. It looks similar to a carb, just no fuel attachments.

Here's the website:
http://www.massfloefi.com/mass-flo-s...fi-system-p-12

The systems works as advertised, for the most part (the issues i had here:

https://ls1tech.com/forums/small-blo...-how-they.html

however, this could be b/c its the pontiac system and i'm sure they don't sell as many and therefore the system my not have been optimised). I'm just no longer a fan of the 85mm Sensor in the configuration it comes in with the Mass-flo system.

Petraszewsky

iTrader: (28)

Maybe some of this stuff or something similar would help with your^^ air turbulence:

They can cut to size:

http://www.saxonpc.com/100mm-cells-for-100.html

http://www.saxonpc.com/airflow-products.html

69LT1Bird

iTrader: (1)

If you could gain 30 hp going from a 85 mm MAF to a 100 mm MAF I am pretty sure everyone would be all over that idea.

You have a 38 SCFM difference at 6000 RPM's and you say that is worth 30 hp, not gonna happen? If you have a big enough engine that you max out the scale of the 85 mm MAF in the PCM, then the 100 mm with corresponding frequency table will show a gain. You will need almost 500 RWHP to get close to that frequency if the injectors and other data in the computer is tuned correctly. There are guys on here that need the 100 mm or should be using it but the gains are proportional to all of the mods. To have a blanket statement of gaining XX amount of HP is false.

2 MPH in the 1/4 not a very good measure. Was the DA exactly the same? Was the 60 ft the same? Tire spin will increase the MPH.

I probably shouldn't of called BS, not polite, but your information does not add up.

I see your new post, that does explain some of our differences.