CNC 243 heads: Lingenfelter v. Livernois
10-20-2008, 09:35 PM
#21
Launching!
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Flint, MI
Posts: 258
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I wish the bolt made 10cc difference, but it didn't. I measured a single cc and it was something like a couple teaspoons of fluid. More than what the bolt occupies even if a half-inch bolt is used from the outside.
The fact that the intake ports measured 250cc "spot on" indicated it wasn't a machining error. I was a tool maker (Tool & Die) for many years. If a machinist can't keep a .001" tolerance, they are not worth their salt. A 10cc difference is many thousandths over the entire port.
I should also note that the valves leaked. A leak down test was performed and not all the valves held 22lbs. It may not seem like much, but it cost $450.00 to fix.
Be careful.
The fact that the intake ports measured 250cc "spot on" indicated it wasn't a machining error. I was a tool maker (Tool & Die) for many years. If a machinist can't keep a .001" tolerance, they are not worth their salt. A 10cc difference is many thousandths over the entire port.
I should also note that the valves leaked. A leak down test was performed and not all the valves held 22lbs. It may not seem like much, but it cost $450.00 to fix.
Be careful.
BTW a cc is .2 teaspoons so 5cc is 1 teaspoon approx. it would take 10cc to equal "a couple of teaspoons"
10-21-2008, 07:17 AM
#22
TECH Regular
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Rolesville, NC
Posts: 471
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just because the runners are 'hogged out" to 240 or 250 does that mean more volume but slower air velocity?
Which produces more HP or TQ and where in the curve?
Large Volume slow air velocity
or
smaller volume faster air velocity
I know when you force water through two different diameter garden hoses with the same pressure, the small hose has higher velocity.
I would think that higher velocity means filling the chamber and cylinder quicker would be a better option for more HP and TQ.
Which produces more HP or TQ and where in the curve?
Large Volume slow air velocity
or
smaller volume faster air velocity
I know when you force water through two different diameter garden hoses with the same pressure, the small hose has higher velocity.
I would think that higher velocity means filling the chamber and cylinder quicker would be a better option for more HP and TQ.
10-21-2008, 08:26 AM
#23
TECH Enthusiast
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Ramstein AB, Germany
Posts: 574
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just because the runners are 'hogged out" to 240 or 250 does that mean more volume but slower air velocity?
Which produces more HP or TQ and where in the curve?
Large Volume slow air velocity
or
smaller volume faster air velocity
I know when you force water through two different diameter garden hoses with the same pressure, the small hose has higher velocity.
I would think that higher velocity means filling the chamber and cylinder quicker would be a better option for more HP and TQ.
Which produces more HP or TQ and where in the curve?
Large Volume slow air velocity
or
smaller volume faster air velocity
I know when you force water through two different diameter garden hoses with the same pressure, the small hose has higher velocity.
I would think that higher velocity means filling the chamber and cylinder quicker would be a better option for more HP and TQ.
Thats why the AFR 205 heads are such good TQ montsers.
10-21-2008, 02:55 PM
#24
Launching!
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Flint, MI
Posts: 258
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, a big thing to remember is CC is only part of the equation. Runner shape, Cross sectional area, and overall port design mean alot more then CC.
It reminds me of something I have heard many times in the performance industry, horsepower is what you buy, torque is what you drive.
same thing can be used in the head market, CC and flow is what you buy, port design and performance is what you drive.
It reminds me of something I have heard many times in the performance industry, horsepower is what you buy, torque is what you drive.
same thing can be used in the head market, CC and flow is what you buy, port design and performance is what you drive.
10-21-2008, 04:28 PM
#25
TECH Fanatic
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Goshen,In.
Posts: 1,027
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, a big thing to remember is CC is only part of the equation. Runner shape, Cross sectional area, and overall port design mean alot more then CC.
It reminds me of something I have heard many times in the performance industry, horsepower is what you buy, torque is what you drive.
same thing can be used in the head market, CC and flow is what you buy, port design and performance is what you drive.
It reminds me of something I have heard many times in the performance industry, horsepower is what you buy, torque is what you drive.
same thing can be used in the head market, CC and flow is what you buy, port design and performance is what you drive.
10-22-2008, 10:52 AM
#26
Negative. Order the tools from CompCams and try it sometime.
Heads were just over one year old (about 54 weeks old). (I travel in my job, and am often gone for many months at a time. Thus, the heads sat.) Livernois would not touch them, but they offered to fix them for over $2,000.00. That is the cost of new heads.
Heads were just over one year old (about 54 weeks old). (I travel in my job, and am often gone for many months at a time. Thus, the heads sat.) Livernois would not touch them, but they offered to fix them for over $2,000.00. That is the cost of new heads.
10-22-2008, 01:58 PM
#27
Just to clarify, if this is the set of heads I am recalling (as it is the only set of stage3r's we have quoted any additional work for) You wanted the heads be milled to 54cc correct? I stated that was not recommended and we would weld the chambers and hand work them if you needed that size specifically. It also was not 2000 dollars on the quote either, it was 13 hours ($1040) plus shipping which was just for the welding, and reshaping of the chamber. There was no additional charge for valve job, decking, and blending afterwards. Also before the "welding" even was brought up I had suggested sending the heads in so we could see what had happened. If it was anything we had overlooked it would have been covered regardless of written warranty time, but if it was external causes (PTV issues, lean conditions taking out a valve/seat) it would have been 120 to valve job if no other repair/parts was needed. I do remember the quote took a couple of days to compile because the person that needed to quote the welding was gone for a couple of days, and for that I apologized and am sorry, but in all fairness you didn't wait for my response before sending them somewhere else. Please, if you have any other questions send them via PM. Also, it was never said we wouldn't touch them.
Andy is correct 1cc of fluid is .202884136 teaspoons, if you would like we could cc the bolt hole on an LS head and get an exact reading as a reference.
Andy is correct 1cc of fluid is .202884136 teaspoons, if you would like we could cc the bolt hole on an LS head and get an exact reading as a reference.
10-22-2008, 07:54 PM
#28
Sir,
The conversation was over the telephone, so the facts will probably always be disputed. There was no damage due to piston to valve clearance or a lean condition. I will PM you.
The conversation was over the telephone, so the facts will probably always be disputed. There was no damage due to piston to valve clearance or a lean condition. I will PM you.
Just to clarify, if this is the set of heads I am recalling (as it is the only set of stage3r's we have quoted any additional work for) You wanted the heads be milled to 54cc correct? I stated that was not recommended and we would weld the chambers and hand work them if you needed that size specifically. It also was not 2000 dollars on the quote either, it was 13 hours ($1040) plus shipping which was just for the welding, and reshaping of the chamber. There was no additional charge for valve job, decking, and blending afterwards. Also before the "welding" even was brought up I had suggested sending the heads in so we could see what had happened. If it was anything we had overlooked it would have been covered regardless of written warranty time, but if it was external causes (PTV issues, lean conditions taking out a valve/seat) it would have been 120 to valve job if no other repair/parts was needed. I do remember the quote took a couple of days to compile because the person that needed to quote the welding was gone for a couple of days, and for that I apologized and am sorry, but in all fairness you didn't wait for my response before sending them somewhere else. Please, if you have any other questions send them via PM. Also, it was never said we wouldn't touch them.
Andy is correct 1cc of fluid is .202884136 teaspoons, if you would like we could cc the bolt hole on an LS head and get an exact reading as a reference.
Andy is correct 1cc of fluid is .202884136 teaspoons, if you would like we could cc the bolt hole on an LS head and get an exact reading as a reference.
11-10-2008, 10:34 PM
#29
Staging Lane
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: DFW, Tx
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I can solve all of these problems.....by the least expensive because getting every last bit of hp out of the engine isnt that big of a deal if your not competing....so if you buy the least expensive one the msg will get out to those high dollar head mfgs and they will eventually bring their product in line with what it should be....
11-10-2008, 11:36 PM
#30
10 Second Club
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Nazifornia
Posts: 217
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Here's my Stage 2 Lingenfelter 243's that were flowed by a local shop after a valve job and milling of 0.010" on 64cc:
INTAKE
Lift Range Int% CFM
0.05 71.8 0.83 59.59
0.10 151 0.60 90.60
0.15 151 0.82 123.82
0.20 300 0.53 159.00
0.25 300 0.65 195.00
0.30 300 0.74 222.00
0.35 300 0.82 246.00
0.40 300 0.90 270.00
0.45 300 0.96 288.00
0.50 450 0.68 306.00
0.55 450 0.71 319.00
0.60 450 0.74 333.00
EXHAUST
Lift Range Int% CFM
0.05 77.2 0.58 44.77
0.10 77.2 0.88 67.93
0.15 155 0.62 96.10
0.20 155 0.78 120.90
0.25 155 0.92 142.60
0.30 314 0.55 172.70
0.35 314 0.6 188.40
0.40 314 0.65 204.10
0.45 314 0.68 213.52
0.50 314 0.71 222.94
0.55 314 0.72 226.08
0.60 314 0.73 229.22
Take it for what it's worth.
INTAKE
Lift Range Int% CFM
0.05 71.8 0.83 59.59
0.10 151 0.60 90.60
0.15 151 0.82 123.82
0.20 300 0.53 159.00
0.25 300 0.65 195.00
0.30 300 0.74 222.00
0.35 300 0.82 246.00
0.40 300 0.90 270.00
0.45 300 0.96 288.00
0.50 450 0.68 306.00
0.55 450 0.71 319.00
0.60 450 0.74 333.00
EXHAUST
Lift Range Int% CFM
0.05 77.2 0.58 44.77
0.10 77.2 0.88 67.93
0.15 155 0.62 96.10
0.20 155 0.78 120.90
0.25 155 0.92 142.60
0.30 314 0.55 172.70
0.35 314 0.6 188.40
0.40 314 0.65 204.10
0.45 314 0.68 213.52
0.50 314 0.71 222.94
0.55 314 0.72 226.08
0.60 314 0.73 229.22
Take it for what it's worth.
11-11-2008, 08:19 AM
#31
TECH Regular
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Rolesville, NC
Posts: 471
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
:crazy: reading all those numbers.
Just pick a set of heads ( all these vendors make a great product) , a good cam, put the engine back together and hit the strip.
Just pick a set of heads ( all these vendors make a great product) , a good cam, put the engine back together and hit the strip.
11-13-2008, 07:45 PM
#32
Staging Lane
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: DFW, Tx
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Waste your money on forced induction and put these fools outta business.....overcharging like fools...1000+ per head..... LOL Ask what the owners of these business drive.....
11-13-2008, 08:57 PM
#33
TECH Fanatic
iTrader: (21)
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Allen Park, MI
Posts: 1,370
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ill give a +1 to livernois products and their customer service. im sure if you have any problems or questions on what you need they will take care of you, they have a bunch of good knowledged people there
11-13-2008, 08:57 PM
#34
Launching!
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Flint, MI
Posts: 258
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hmm, let me get this straight.
500 for 243 heads
320 for valves
100 for guides
330 for a spring kit
so 1250 just for parts
lets say its only 500 to cnc port heads
thats 1750
then however many man hours to hone a guide, valve job, hand blend...
even if they only charged 40 dollars an hours which would maybe pay for the guy doing the work it would still add up to well over $240 additional, which would put it over $2000.
Yeah, it looks like over charging to me
500 for 243 heads
320 for valves
100 for guides
330 for a spring kit
so 1250 just for parts
lets say its only 500 to cnc port heads
thats 1750
then however many man hours to hone a guide, valve job, hand blend...
even if they only charged 40 dollars an hours which would maybe pay for the guy doing the work it would still add up to well over $240 additional, which would put it over $2000.
Yeah, it looks like over charging to me
