View Poll Results: which heads for 440ci stroker? touched up TFS 235cc heads or touched up GM LS7 heads?
hand touched up TFS 235cc heads.
68
51.13%
hand touched up GM LS7 heads.
65
48.87%
Voters: 133. You may not vote on this poll
which heads for 440ci stroker? TFS 235cc or GM LS7 heads?
11-04-2008, 02:09 AM
#41
Have you heard about a price?
its true that some guy and his 402 will pull on you when you're both at 2k or even 3k rpm
I guess after about 2 seconds on the pedal you'll be flying by them anyway, so................
6L90 instead of a 4L80 or something
Whats the 6L90? Never heard of it.
[quote]
e.g. can you imagine 600rwhp on a milder/mid cam?
or 700rwhp with a mid/wild cam?
a used sheetmetal intake can be had for pretty cheap from those who are just not feeling the conversion, especially from the guys with smaller displacement
11-04-2008, 02:16 AM
#42
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false.
if you think you only lose low end torque, you're mistaken. be prepared to lose atleast 50 peak rwtq. what sheet metal intake have you run on a big cubed motor to be making all these accusations about big motors and sheetmetal intakes?
just wondering.
11-04-2008, 04:37 AM
#45
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Abdullah - "what is SR"
-SR is Solid Roller.
But with the argument on these sheet metal intakes I think you HAVE to have a SR to see the real gains especially if it's a street car, roll racing or not. Someone was talking about spining 7.5k with it but that is barely getting into the area where a sheetmetal will shine. I'm sure jermzz has some good reasons for going back to a FAST and I bet it will be an all around better performing car than with the sheet metal (even with a massive 454).
I haven't seen a lot of #'s on the Beck mainfold but I have seen a few people ditch it and go back to a FAST. IMO the wilson manifold looks like crap when you look down the middle of it, and I had a friend recently run it on a 427 build that made horrible #'s.
I think some of the people in this thread are thinking a donkey dick cam with massive heads and a sheet metal intake will produce the "end all" motor. I used to think like that too, until I realized that real world results were not what was to be expected and I think most tuners on here have seen the same thing. The only way to make that stuff work is to turn some SERIOUS rpm, and just upgrading to a SR and shaft mounted rockers isn't going to cut it.
-SR is Solid Roller.
But with the argument on these sheet metal intakes I think you HAVE to have a SR to see the real gains especially if it's a street car, roll racing or not. Someone was talking about spining 7.5k with it but that is barely getting into the area where a sheetmetal will shine. I'm sure jermzz has some good reasons for going back to a FAST and I bet it will be an all around better performing car than with the sheet metal (even with a massive 454).
I haven't seen a lot of #'s on the Beck mainfold but I have seen a few people ditch it and go back to a FAST. IMO the wilson manifold looks like crap when you look down the middle of it, and I had a friend recently run it on a 427 build that made horrible #'s.
I think some of the people in this thread are thinking a donkey dick cam with massive heads and a sheet metal intake will produce the "end all" motor. I used to think like that too, until I realized that real world results were not what was to be expected and I think most tuners on here have seen the same thing. The only way to make that stuff work is to turn some SERIOUS rpm, and just upgrading to a SR and shaft mounted rockers isn't going to cut it.
11-04-2008, 09:22 AM
#46
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Abdullah - "what is SR"
-SR is Solid Roller.
But with the argument on these sheet metal intakes I think you HAVE to have a SR to see the real gains especially if it's a street car, roll racing or not. Someone was talking about spining 7.5k with it but that is barely getting into the area where a sheetmetal will shine. I'm sure jermzz has some good reasons for going back to a FAST and I bet it will be an all around better performing car than with the sheet metal (even with a massive 454).
I haven't seen a lot of #'s on the Beck mainfold but I have seen a few people ditch it and go back to a FAST. IMO the wilson manifold looks like crap when you look down the middle of it, and I had a friend recently run it on a 427 build that made horrible #'s.
I think some of the people in this thread are thinking a donkey dick cam with massive heads and a sheet metal intake will produce the "end all" motor. I used to think like that too, until I realized that real world results were not what was to be expected and I think most tuners on here have seen the same thing. The only way to make that stuff work is to turn some SERIOUS rpm, and just upgrading to a SR and shaft mounted rockers isn't going to cut it.
-SR is Solid Roller.
But with the argument on these sheet metal intakes I think you HAVE to have a SR to see the real gains especially if it's a street car, roll racing or not. Someone was talking about spining 7.5k with it but that is barely getting into the area where a sheetmetal will shine. I'm sure jermzz has some good reasons for going back to a FAST and I bet it will be an all around better performing car than with the sheet metal (even with a massive 454).
I haven't seen a lot of #'s on the Beck mainfold but I have seen a few people ditch it and go back to a FAST. IMO the wilson manifold looks like crap when you look down the middle of it, and I had a friend recently run it on a 427 build that made horrible #'s.
I think some of the people in this thread are thinking a donkey dick cam with massive heads and a sheet metal intake will produce the "end all" motor. I used to think like that too, until I realized that real world results were not what was to be expected and I think most tuners on here have seen the same thing. The only way to make that stuff work is to turn some SERIOUS rpm, and just upgrading to a SR and shaft mounted rockers isn't going to cut it.
Couldn't have put it better myself.
People talk and talk and talk but they've never actually done.
I've already done what this thread is talking about, and let me tell you, guys you're sadly mistaken
11-04-2008, 09:39 AM
#47
One of the meanest roll racers I've ever seen is a local car. An iron 422ci + 300 shot. 535 RWHP N/A and 880 RWHP on spray, not sure of the torque. WS6 T/A, 6 speed. The engine was built in 2003 and the spray was added in 2005. FAST intake. I would think an engine built today could have close to 600 RWHP, maybe 625, plus that same 300 shot and just stay with the plastic intake like the ported LS7. I guess with a 2-stage 300 shot, you can have your N/A car, your N/A car plus a 150 shot and than the full 300 shot. Thats probably the best of all worlds, without getting mixed up with this sheet metal, SR, high compression issues.
Now I see why Forced Induction is so popular.
11-04-2008, 09:44 AM
#48
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depending on what you mean by drivability
my definition is more or less the feel and also if it stalls at 2k rpm for no reason, etc
just because it loses insane power down low doesn't mean it loses out on drivability
but lose too much and then yes, it will definitely not be as drivable
my definition is more or less the feel and also if it stalls at 2k rpm for no reason, etc
just because it loses insane power down low doesn't mean it loses out on drivability
but lose too much and then yes, it will definitely not be as drivable
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iv-internal-engine/941736-fast-92-question.html
specifically post #20 #21 from Jeff. He has the same results as I did. I'm not making this stuff up to start and argument with you. I learned the hard way these manifolds are for street cars. They're for drag cars that do a 1/4 mile at a time.
at first i made the same mistake you made, with a motor that i had no plans whatsoever to spin higher than 7k, was a 402
lost power everywhere, except at right around 7k or so
then felt stupid once i ran into a guy that had a wilson billet manifold with 454ci
i tried his car and it didn't have nearly as many problems as mine,
came to the conclusion that:
A. there something wrong with the manifold
or
B. his engine is somehow different
so later on when a buddy of mine built a 467 motor, he took my sheetmetal manifold that i paid 3k for, and he took for free, and later when the car was finished, i tried it, and again, wasn't nearly as bad as mine
his motor with all jesel stuff spun to 8.5k rpm
and because he got the manifold for free, i made him back to back compare his ported fast 90 that he originally was going to use against my old sheetmetal
lost power under 5k but started picking up near the top, actually picked up ~50hp or so at 7k or so
engine had a mid cam in it, solid roller setup, etc
never ran across a 481 personally but i can only surmise based on this experience that the larger the displacement and the greater the airflow, it can only get better as the fast starts hitting its limits or something
during this entire time, i was busy getting my current motor built, a 4.185x4 oversquare setup, short deck, TEA/TFS 235's, mild cam, quiet exhaust, ported fast 92, etc
i can say for a fact that although he only has ~25ci more than me, his top end is unreal vs mine
you can blame that on the cam, etc
but i think the manifold had something to do with it
dyno compares against a ported fast can't be wrong
and don't get me wrong, i have nothing bad to say about my current TFS 235 setup, its just i know there's power that i'm not making compared to the less drivable stuff, besides i know for a fact i'm looking for a street setup, hence the mild cam, which btw i'd gladly recommend to anyone
but hey, roll race right?
lost power everywhere, except at right around 7k or so
then felt stupid once i ran into a guy that had a wilson billet manifold with 454ci
i tried his car and it didn't have nearly as many problems as mine,
came to the conclusion that:
A. there something wrong with the manifold
or
B. his engine is somehow different
so later on when a buddy of mine built a 467 motor, he took my sheetmetal manifold that i paid 3k for, and he took for free, and later when the car was finished, i tried it, and again, wasn't nearly as bad as mine
his motor with all jesel stuff spun to 8.5k rpm
and because he got the manifold for free, i made him back to back compare his ported fast 90 that he originally was going to use against my old sheetmetal
lost power under 5k but started picking up near the top, actually picked up ~50hp or so at 7k or so
engine had a mid cam in it, solid roller setup, etc
never ran across a 481 personally but i can only surmise based on this experience that the larger the displacement and the greater the airflow, it can only get better as the fast starts hitting its limits or something
during this entire time, i was busy getting my current motor built, a 4.185x4 oversquare setup, short deck, TEA/TFS 235's, mild cam, quiet exhaust, ported fast 92, etc
i can say for a fact that although he only has ~25ci more than me, his top end is unreal vs mine
you can blame that on the cam, etc
but i think the manifold had something to do with it
dyno compares against a ported fast can't be wrong
and don't get me wrong, i have nothing bad to say about my current TFS 235 setup, its just i know there's power that i'm not making compared to the less drivable stuff, besides i know for a fact i'm looking for a street setup, hence the mild cam, which btw i'd gladly recommend to anyone
but hey, roll race right?
what kind of oil setup was he running to spin to 8.5k?
sure, you can do it, but are you honeslty gonna try to pass that as streetable?
and i'm willing to bet, even a 12:1 481 ci sollid roller with a beck sheetmetal, as god damn unstreetable as that would be, would still come shy of 700rw.
Last edited by jermzz; 11-04-2008 at 10:07 AM.
11-04-2008, 09:48 AM
#49
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Those have some pretty long strokes for high rpm's, right? Piston speed?
One of the meanest roll racers I've ever seen is a local car. An iron 422ci + 300 shot. 535 RWHP N/A and 880 RWHP on spray, not sure of the torque. WS6 T/A, 6 speed. The engine was built in 2003 and the spray was added in 2005. FAST intake. I would think an engine built today could have close to 600 RWHP, maybe 625, plus that same 300 shot and just stay with the plastic intake like the ported LS7. I guess with a 2-stage 300 shot, you can have your N/A car, your N/A car plus a 150 shot and than the full 300 shot. Thats probably the best of all worlds, without getting mixed up with this sheet metal, SR, high compression issues.
Now I see why Forced Induction is so popular.
One of the meanest roll racers I've ever seen is a local car. An iron 422ci + 300 shot. 535 RWHP N/A and 880 RWHP on spray, not sure of the torque. WS6 T/A, 6 speed. The engine was built in 2003 and the spray was added in 2005. FAST intake. I would think an engine built today could have close to 600 RWHP, maybe 625, plus that same 300 shot and just stay with the plastic intake like the ported LS7. I guess with a 2-stage 300 shot, you can have your N/A car, your N/A car plus a 150 shot and than the full 300 shot. Thats probably the best of all worlds, without getting mixed up with this sheet metal, SR, high compression issues.
Now I see why Forced Induction is so popular.
This was my goal from day 1. I ended up getting a sheetmetal, then learning the hard way that it's the wrong way to go about it.
Now I have a ported fast 90 combo, making 600rw, streetable, with a huge dual stage shot coming. IMO, for a street car, it can't get any sweeter.
PS: I also do a lot of roll racing, and dig racing and drive my gilrfriend places in the car on the weekend. It's a completely streetable 600rw car now that when I spray will be a f*cking monster.
11-04-2008, 02:16 PM
#50
This was my goal from day 1. I ended up getting a sheetmetal, then learning the hard way that it's the wrong way to go about it.
Now I have a ported fast 90 combo, making 600rw, streetable, with a huge dual stage shot coming. IMO, for a street car, it can't get any sweeter.
PS: I also do a lot of roll racing, and dig racing and drive my gilrfriend places in the car on the weekend. It's a completely streetable 600rw car now that when I spray will be a f*cking monster.
Now I have a ported fast 90 combo, making 600rw, streetable, with a huge dual stage shot coming. IMO, for a street car, it can't get any sweeter.
PS: I also do a lot of roll racing, and dig racing and drive my gilrfriend places in the car on the weekend. It's a completely streetable 600rw car now that when I spray will be a f*cking monster.
Yeah, the monster N/A engine with a 300 shot is a nice roll racer. But damn, I guess after all the BS of trying to get the best of all worlds, dropping a small single turbo kit on a 383 or something would give you 1,000 RWHP too.
11-04-2008, 02:37 PM
#51
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11-04-2008, 09:40 PM
#52
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RPM 6 speed.
True, but for a true street car, I see more loss then gain. that's all.
sounds like a good setup to me. for a race car lol
my car is really just a weekend warrior, too. But along with racing for cash, roll racing in the local scene, etc... I like to be able to take my girlfriend out to dinner, and wherever else we wanna go and have her enjoy the ride, power, listen to the stereo, and not have a problem with the car running funky, bucking like crazy, being horribly nasty loud, and annoying so on, so forth.
all this pushing 950 rwhp at the push of a button to run away from any street bike[ 8URGSXR ] ricer, vette, etc in my way.
this is what I have right now with a Fast and it's great. my girlfriend loves going in it, it's fast as ****, looks good, sounds good. Can't be any happier.
for someone who wants to take the car out only for racing, then come back and park it, then sure. you could do all that, but it defeats the purpose of turning the car into a street car. It's still a street car none the less, but it's just a track car driven on the street. It's just a preference.
I'll take my street car out and whoop on track cars for fun, then drive my car to the city for a night of fun.
And I think that's most people's dreams for their car, other then people who want strictly race cars. I guess it's all a matter of preference.
DCR plays a big role too, you ideally want them both high as possible on the lowest octane rating. I'm no cam expert, but I believe pumping up the SCR pumps up the DCR too, and I think around 12:1 brings up the DCR past 9.0 which is a bit high for a desireable pump gas 9x octane car. Not sure on that though. have to ask someone like patrickG or one of those guys.
never said it was desirable, but streetable yes
in all of my threads, look at what i'm running, a TFS 235 setup, ultra mild cam, etc
but having tried the stuff i can say some have made it work and work well, you can't just say they're all terrible products or something
they do require a lot of work and are not as easy to work with as a plastic manifold, but there ARE gains to be had if you worked it all out
in all of my threads, look at what i'm running, a TFS 235 setup, ultra mild cam, etc
but having tried the stuff i can say some have made it work and work well, you can't just say they're all terrible products or something
they do require a lot of work and are not as easy to work with as a plastic manifold, but there ARE gains to be had if you worked it all out
and thats before the geared cam drive and the roller cam bearings start happening
never said these things are all street friendly
i see what the now why we're arguing
your idea of roll racing is with your daily driver, occasionally as you go about daily life, meet a moron in a ricebox with 1000 shot nos and a motor that has less in it than a 2L bottle of pepsi, be able to beat the crap outta him without you even shifting hard
for that, TFS 235 or LS7 heads all the way, plastic manifold, mid cam, hydraulic rollers, maybe mild spray if you wanna be sure
but my definition of roll racing is with my weekend car, meet up at night on a weekend [...edited out to remove street racing content...] and then once monday comes, drive my daily and then pretend nothing ever happened, etc
which yes, all of that stuff becomes "streetable", all it has to do is to idle right and get me there right?
but to the original point, if the car was a daily, then no all of this would be a bad idea of course, in which case someone's takeoff LS7 motor would most likely be a good bet with a cam swap or something
never said these things are all street friendly
i see what the now why we're arguing
your idea of roll racing is with your daily driver, occasionally as you go about daily life, meet a moron in a ricebox with 1000 shot nos and a motor that has less in it than a 2L bottle of pepsi, be able to beat the crap outta him without you even shifting hard
for that, TFS 235 or LS7 heads all the way, plastic manifold, mid cam, hydraulic rollers, maybe mild spray if you wanna be sure
but my definition of roll racing is with my weekend car, meet up at night on a weekend [...edited out to remove street racing content...] and then once monday comes, drive my daily and then pretend nothing ever happened, etc
which yes, all of that stuff becomes "streetable", all it has to do is to idle right and get me there right?
but to the original point, if the car was a daily, then no all of this would be a bad idea of course, in which case someone's takeoff LS7 motor would most likely be a good bet with a cam swap or something
all this pushing 950 rwhp at the push of a button to run away from any street bike[ 8URGSXR ]
ricer, vette, etc in my way. this is what I have right now with a Fast and it's great. my girlfriend loves going in it, it's fast as ****, looks good, sounds good. Can't be any happier.
for someone who wants to take the car out only for racing, then come back and park it, then sure. you could do all that, but it defeats the purpose of turning the car into a street car. It's still a street car none the less, but it's just a track car driven on the street. It's just a preference.
I'll take my street car out and whoop on track cars for fun, then drive my car to the city for a night of fun.
And I think that's most people's dreams for their car, other then people who want strictly race cars. I guess it's all a matter of preference.
DCR plays a big role too, you ideally want them both high as possible on the lowest octane rating. I'm no cam expert, but I believe pumping up the SCR pumps up the DCR too, and I think around 12:1 brings up the DCR past 9.0 which is a bit high for a desireable pump gas 9x octane car. Not sure on that though. have to ask someone like patrickG or one of those guys.
11-04-2008, 09:57 PM
#53
now i'm 100% convinced to go with the hand touched up TFS 235cc and ported Fast 92mm intake manifold for a 441ci LS7 short block 4.125" bore and 4.125" stroke. looks like the hand touched up GM LS7 heads and ported GM LS7 intake manifold is not that streetble.
OK, i want to set the compression at 11:1 , i don't want the compression to go too high to not encounter overheating problems.
what would be a good cam choice for a 441ci LS7 with TFS 235cc and Fast 92mm intake manifold?
shall i go with a big cam? or mid or mild cam?
i want to be in the 600rwhp area.
another question is :
how to cool the 441ci LS7 above? shall i go with bigger radiator and stronger fans?
what radiator and fans do you recommend to cool the 441ci LS7 above? will the radiator and fans fit in the car without space problem?
OK, i want to set the compression at 11:1 , i don't want the compression to go too high to not encounter overheating problems.
what would be a good cam choice for a 441ci LS7 with TFS 235cc and Fast 92mm intake manifold?
shall i go with a big cam? or mid or mild cam?
i want to be in the 600rwhp area.
another question is :
how to cool the 441ci LS7 above? shall i go with bigger radiator and stronger fans?
what radiator and fans do you recommend to cool the 441ci LS7 above? will the radiator and fans fit in the car without space problem?
11-04-2008, 10:26 PM
#54
now i'm 100% convinced to go with the hand touched up TFS 235cc and ported Fast 92mm intake manifold for a 441ci LS7 short block 4.125" bore and 4.125" stroke. looks like the hand touched up GM LS7 heads and ported GM LS7 intake manifold is not that streetble.
OK, i want to set the compression at 11:1 , i don't want the compression to go too high to not encounter overheating problems.
what would be a good cam choice for a 441ci LS7 with TFS 235cc and Fast 92mm intake manifold?
shall i go with a big cam? or mid or mild cam?
i want to be in the 600rwhp area.
another question is :
how to cool the 441ci LS7 above? shall i go with bigger radiator and stronger fans?
what radiator and fans do you recommend to cool the 441ci LS7 above? will the radiator and fans fit in the car without space problem?
OK, i want to set the compression at 11:1 , i don't want the compression to go too high to not encounter overheating problems.
what would be a good cam choice for a 441ci LS7 with TFS 235cc and Fast 92mm intake manifold?
shall i go with a big cam? or mid or mild cam?
i want to be in the 600rwhp area.
another question is :
how to cool the 441ci LS7 above? shall i go with bigger radiator and stronger fans?
what radiator and fans do you recommend to cool the 441ci LS7 above? will the radiator and fans fit in the car without space problem?
11-04-2008, 10:58 PM
#55
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Some people have issues with the factory cooling some don't. My iron block running almost 12:1 has zero issues with the stock cooling system and hovers bewtween 170/180
11-05-2008, 01:30 AM
#57
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now i'm 100% convinced to go with the hand touched up TFS 235cc and ported Fast 92mm intake manifold for a 441ci LS7 short block 4.125" bore and 4.125" stroke. looks like the hand touched up GM LS7 heads and ported GM LS7 intake manifold is not that streetble.
OK, i want to set the compression at 11:1 , i don't want the compression to go too high to not encounter overheating problems.
what would be a good cam choice for a 441ci LS7 with TFS 235cc and Fast 92mm intake manifold?
shall i go with a big cam? or mid or mild cam?
i want to be in the 600rwhp area.
another question is :
how to cool the 441ci LS7 above? shall i go with bigger radiator and stronger fans?
what radiator and fans do you recommend to cool the 441ci LS7 above? will the radiator and fans fit in the car without space problem?
OK, i want to set the compression at 11:1 , i don't want the compression to go too high to not encounter overheating problems.
what would be a good cam choice for a 441ci LS7 with TFS 235cc and Fast 92mm intake manifold?
shall i go with a big cam? or mid or mild cam?
i want to be in the 600rwhp area.
another question is :
how to cool the 441ci LS7 above? shall i go with bigger radiator and stronger fans?
what radiator and fans do you recommend to cool the 441ci LS7 above? will the radiator and fans fit in the car without space problem?
Talk to your engine builder about a cam to reach your goals. I tell you though, it aint gonne be small. It's gonna be upper 250's - mid to high 260's. and I still say go to 245's. You're ptobably gonna want the heads milled to a 68cc ish area. 11.1 is a pretty low compression. you can run up to 11.8 just fine to get that extra power while you're in there, and you'll be still running on pump gas.
as for cooling..I've got an 11.8:1 454 on completely stock cooling down to the water pump and it never over heats. So you'll be fine with whatever compression you choose, but if you wanted that extra safety, you could always get a BE cool radiator and a EWP to help you out.
11-05-2008, 05:02 AM
#58
Talk to your engine builder about a cam to reach your goals. I tell you though, it aint gonne be small. It's gonna be upper 250's - mid to high 260's. and I still say go to 245's. You're ptobably gonna want the heads milled to a 68cc ish area. 11.1 is a pretty low compression. you can run up to 11.8 just fine to get that extra power while you're in there, and you'll be still running on pump gas.
as for cooling..I've got an 11.8:1 454 on completely stock cooling down to the water pump and it never over heats. So you'll be fine with whatever compression you choose, but if you wanted that extra safety, you could always get a BE cool radiator and a EWP to help you out.
as for cooling..I've got an 11.8:1 454 on completely stock cooling down to the water pump and it never over heats. So you'll be fine with whatever compression you choose, but if you wanted that extra safety, you could always get a BE cool radiator and a EWP to help you out.
11-05-2008, 06:08 AM
#59
Cam specs-Cartek custom grind
sorry not too much help with those questions
I have all the basic bolt on susupension stuff th350 trans 8"vert
compr ratio is around 13:1
Although I do drive it on the street, I certainly wouldn't drive it everyday, basically to the track, shop and occasional car show.
set up is probably a bit much for what you want it for.
11-05-2008, 06:41 AM
#60
check out this video at youtube, it is for heads/cam C6 Z06 Vs. LS1 turbo camaro :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-Avn...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-Avn...eature=related