BIG PROBLEM!!!! Need some thoughts.
01-22-2009, 01:43 PM
#61
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So your saying with all the measurements across the board all over the place a supposedly renownd company like Tsp cant keep the clearances within a .0001. Is this hard to ask for. For a STREET engine this is too loose for a race engine its medioker. If i built an engine like this i would be laughed out of town. I was taught to keep it within .0001 of each other. That guide is according to clevite not gm, i have a build book and ill post the correct clearances in here.
TSP has there shortblocks built by one of the premier machine shops in the world from what I hear...
01-22-2009, 01:48 PM
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My clearances with clevite is more than this and I have no oiling issues even with turbos! I've always been fought a short block build issue shows up quickly, not after 6k miles!
I would absolutely trust TSP and Robin. Between those guys they've probably built thousands of ls engines.
How can you possibly tell the crank wasn't bent from the heat of spinning the bearings. Did you run the TSP spec oil?
Just thinking out loud, but if Tsp, clevite, and Robin from m like the clearances, I'd trust them.
Don't make the mistake of letting a unknown shop work on your ls, send back to TSP. I bet even after 6k miles they'll still give you huge discounts fixing it. Those guys are some of the most stand up guys I know!!
I would absolutely trust TSP and Robin. Between those guys they've probably built thousands of ls engines.
How can you possibly tell the crank wasn't bent from the heat of spinning the bearings. Did you run the TSP spec oil?
Just thinking out loud, but if Tsp, clevite, and Robin from m like the clearances, I'd trust them.
Don't make the mistake of letting a unknown shop work on your ls, send back to TSP. I bet even after 6k miles they'll still give you huge discounts fixing it. Those guys are some of the most stand up guys I know!!
01-22-2009, 02:01 PM
#64
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So your saying with all the measurements across the board all over the place a supposedly renownd company like Tsp cant keep the clearances within a .0001. Is this hard to ask for. For a STREET engine this is too loose for a race engine its medioker. If i built an engine like this i would be laughed out of town. I was taught to keep it within .0001 of each other. That guide is according to clevite not gm, i have a build book and ill post the correct clearances in here.
Actually the clearances on that sheet are not really out of normal range and bigger clearances will never hurt the bearings anyway. They will just result in somewhat lower oil pressure since even more oil is flowing though the bearings but the bearings will be just fine and maybe even happier.
The clearances are entirely based off of parts and how much they flex so that there is no contact ever so higher rpm engines and higher power engine usually run slightly more clearance for more wiggle room and more oil flow to keep the bearings cooler.
On LSxs I usually run around .0022-.0030 ish on LS1 Mains depending on whether it's aluminum or iron and power etc. and around .0025ish on the rods in general but change it always for really big power stuff. Of course those are going to be from +/-.0002 range or so depending on what we really get and with coated bearings we have to play with them a lot to get things right.
A typical 10000 rpm 1000 hp small block with LS1 sized bearings will run .0028-.0033 on a shaft like that and the rods will easily be .0025-.0030 and they will still run pretty thin oil at least in a drag race engine. On a street or endurance engine they will run thicker oil since it will run at a higher temp for longer times usually.
With really excellent parts and a perfect ground crank that is truly flat and cylindrical on the journals you can run a little less as well as when turning lower rpm or with less power but looser is always safer. I have taken apart old LS1s that have 250K on them with 10 psi at idle and clearance way on the big side and they always look fine in general.
Too tight on the other hand will easily spin a bearing when it gets hot and or catches and spins. I am way more worried to see really high pressure from a regular oil pump deal than lower pressure. The only way to see really high presure usually means tight clearances on eth bearings and that's always when we see spun bearings on hi-perf stuff ten times more often.
Reher-Morrison will run .0030-.0040 on mains and and .0030-.0035 on Rods on conventional BBCs and not worry at all and everything looks like new at the end of a year of bracket racing and 1000 hp usage!
Also unless you have a real expensive crank and perfect rod and main housing bores you can't really hold the clearances to a .0001 since the parts and bearings we have aren't that good. As long as the range is right is what matters.
Not picking on you at all but some of what you wrote is not really possible outside of a NASCAR or Pro Stock shop where the parts and A-1 big dollar stuff which costs 4 times as much.
Last edited by racer7088; 01-22-2009 at 04:04 PM. Reason: I actually said 10000hp small block! Changed to 1000hp. Oops.
01-22-2009, 02:44 PM
#65
I agree with robin it looks like the clearances are just about perfect. The usual rule of thumb is about .001" for every inch of journal diameter. 10W30 is kinda thin for thos clearances though.
01-22-2009, 02:55 PM
#66
I hade a motor built by SLP and sold threw SpeedInc and the exact same thing happened to mine, the internals looked exactly the same. Neither SpeedInc nor SLP would do anything about it. TSP only offers a 90 day warranty so you should feel good that jason is offering to do something about it. TSP stands behind their work and if they know they have done something wrong they'll make it right.
01-22-2009, 03:10 PM
#67
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You know I see this happen once in a while, and I'm curious to see what folks would say could have caused this problem. For example how much detonation could cause that Robin? I was kinda with Mikey. I've seen in the early years motors have that happen because someone race or road raced their car and got down a quart or two from it getting sucked thru the pcv system. Also, no nitrous on this car?
01-22-2009, 03:12 PM
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You know I see this happen once in a while, and I'm curious to see what folks would say could have caused this problem. For example how much detonation could cause that Robin? I was kinda with Mikey. I've seen in the early years motors have that happen because someone race or road raced their car and got down a quart or two from it getting sucked thru the pcv system. Also, no nitrous on this car?
01-22-2009, 03:12 PM
#69
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Those clearances are well within the accepted norm for an LS1 aluminum block with Clevite bearings. We actaully run slightly looser than that and run the Melling HV pump. We've had MUCH better reliability and durability since moving to the looser side of things. Back 7 or 8 years ago, we tried everything from tight clearances (as in GM stock specs .0008"-.0017") all the way to .003"+. There is NOTHING wrong with those clearances.
I'd love to try and explain hydrodynamic wedge theory to a few posters here but to be honest, I can barely grasp the concept myself. I do know that the increased oil flow through the bearings is VERY benificial from an oil temp (and therefore bearing temp) standpoint and has been proven many times over in real world testing. Just take a look at the back of any Callies sales catalog for an excellent description of some actual testing they did on this very subject. It is an excellent read.
Just my humble opinion.
Shane
I'd love to try and explain hydrodynamic wedge theory to a few posters here but to be honest, I can barely grasp the concept myself. I do know that the increased oil flow through the bearings is VERY benificial from an oil temp (and therefore bearing temp) standpoint and has been proven many times over in real world testing. Just take a look at the back of any Callies sales catalog for an excellent description of some actual testing they did on this very subject. It is an excellent read.
Just my humble opinion.
Shane
01-22-2009, 03:43 PM
#70
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NOVA,
Actually the clearances on that sheet are not really out of normal range and bigger clearances will never hurt the bearings anyway. They will just result in somewhat lower oil pressure since even more oil is flowing though the bearings but the bearings will be just fine and maybe even happier.
The clearances are entirely based off of parts and how much they flex so that there is no contact ever so higher rpm engines and higher power engine usually run slightly more clearance for more wiggle room and more oil flow to keep the bearings cooler.
On LSxs I usually run around .0022-.0030 ish on LS1 Mains depending on whether it's aluminum or iron and power etc. and around .0025ish on the rods in general but change it always for really big power stuff. Of course those are going to be from +/-.0002 range or so depending on what we really get and with coated bearings we have to play with them a lot to get things right.
A typical 10000 rpm 10000 hp small block with LS1 sized bearings will run .0028-.0033 on a shaft like that and the rods will easily be .0025-.0030 and they will still run pretty thin oil at least in a drag race engine. On a street or endurance engine they will run thicker oil since it will run at a higher temp for longer times usually.
With really excellent parts and a perfect ground crank that is truly flat and cylindrical on the journals you can run a little less as well as when turning lower rpm or with less power but looser is always safer. I have taken apart old LS1s that have 250K on them with 10 psi at idle and clearance way on the big side and they always look fine in general.
Too tight on the other hand will easily spin a bearing when it gets hot and or catches and spins. I am way more worried to see really high pressure from a regular oil pump deal than lower pressure. The only way to see really high presure usually means tight clearances on eth bearings and that's always when we see spun bearings on hi-perf stuff ten times more often.
Reher-Morrison will run .0030-.0040 on mains and and .0030-.0035 on Rods on conventional BBCs and not worry at all and everything looks like new at the end of a year of bracket racing and 1000 hp usage!
Also unless you have a real expensive crank and perfect rod and main housing bores you can't really hold the clearances to a .0001 since the parts and bearings we have aren't that good. As long as the range is right is what matters.
Not picking on you at all but some of what you wrote is not really possible outside of a NASCAR or Pro Stock shop where the parts and A-1 big dollar stuff which costs 4 times as much.
Actually the clearances on that sheet are not really out of normal range and bigger clearances will never hurt the bearings anyway. They will just result in somewhat lower oil pressure since even more oil is flowing though the bearings but the bearings will be just fine and maybe even happier.
The clearances are entirely based off of parts and how much they flex so that there is no contact ever so higher rpm engines and higher power engine usually run slightly more clearance for more wiggle room and more oil flow to keep the bearings cooler.
On LSxs I usually run around .0022-.0030 ish on LS1 Mains depending on whether it's aluminum or iron and power etc. and around .0025ish on the rods in general but change it always for really big power stuff. Of course those are going to be from +/-.0002 range or so depending on what we really get and with coated bearings we have to play with them a lot to get things right.
A typical 10000 rpm 10000 hp small block with LS1 sized bearings will run .0028-.0033 on a shaft like that and the rods will easily be .0025-.0030 and they will still run pretty thin oil at least in a drag race engine. On a street or endurance engine they will run thicker oil since it will run at a higher temp for longer times usually.
With really excellent parts and a perfect ground crank that is truly flat and cylindrical on the journals you can run a little less as well as when turning lower rpm or with less power but looser is always safer. I have taken apart old LS1s that have 250K on them with 10 psi at idle and clearance way on the big side and they always look fine in general.
Too tight on the other hand will easily spin a bearing when it gets hot and or catches and spins. I am way more worried to see really high pressure from a regular oil pump deal than lower pressure. The only way to see really high presure usually means tight clearances on eth bearings and that's always when we see spun bearings on hi-perf stuff ten times more often.
Reher-Morrison will run .0030-.0040 on mains and and .0030-.0035 on Rods on conventional BBCs and not worry at all and everything looks like new at the end of a year of bracket racing and 1000 hp usage!
Also unless you have a real expensive crank and perfect rod and main housing bores you can't really hold the clearances to a .0001 since the parts and bearings we have aren't that good. As long as the range is right is what matters.
Not picking on you at all but some of what you wrote is not really possible outside of a NASCAR or Pro Stock shop where the parts and A-1 big dollar stuff which costs 4 times as much.
01-22-2009, 03:43 PM
#71
So your saying with all the measurements across the board all over the place a supposedly renownd company like Tsp cant keep the clearances within a .0001. Is this hard to ask for. For a STREET engine this is too loose for a race engine its medioker. If i built an engine like this i would be laughed out of town. I was taught to keep it within .0001 of each other. That guide is according to clevite not gm, i have a build book and ill post the correct clearances in here.
I used to work for an Aircraft/aerospace manufacturer, and we COULD NOT hold tolerances that tight. For the parts that we made that had to be held to .0005, which is half of one thousandths, we had a temperature controlled slab we had to set our parts on for their temp to stabilize, and we could not touch them, because the heat from your hand could cause erroneous readings.
So, basically, you're full of ****. You're doing nothing but flappin your lips trying to impress.
01-22-2009, 03:45 PM
#72
tust me i know you are one of the best engine builders, but when someone drops $5000 dollars into an engine, im gonna measure everything to fit my .0001 std even if it means grinding a new crank and polishing it to fit the bearings. I know how he has drove this engine, and it has not been hard. what i am tring to get at is (and correct me if i am wrong) if you run a loose clearnce they should make the buyer aware in their breake in guide to not run a thin oils such as 5w30 to keep oil pressure. i know that it also depends on the oil pump but it should be brougt up.
That's why there are TOLERANCES. No one can keep a tolerance to one tenth (not in this biz anyways). It's not practical if you could. That small of a measurement will change with a few degrees of temp.
Last edited by edcmat-l1; 01-22-2009 at 04:06 PM.
01-22-2009, 04:08 PM
#74
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tust me i know you are one of the best engine builders, but when someone drops $5000 dollars into an engine, im gonna measure everything to fit my .0001 std even if it means grinding a new crank and polishing it to fit the bearings. I know how he has drove this engine, and it has not been hard. what i am tring to get at is (and correct me if i am wrong) if you run a loose clearnce they should make the buyer aware in their break in guide to not run a thin oils such as 5w30 to keep oil pressure. i know that it also depends on the oil pump but it should be brougt up.
I have built 50,000 dollar engines and had the clearance vary more than .0001. And if you polish a crank to gain clearance you are a fucktard.
01-22-2009, 04:11 PM
#75
A micrometer, even in graduated tenths, is highly inaccurate. I was working in a tight tolerance machine shop when your mama was washin you in the sink.
When you're talking about measuring in tenths, temperature can change your measurements. Just because your mike says, .0001, doesn't mean it's highly accurate. Brown and Sharpe, Starrett, it doesn't matter the brand.
Furthermore, it's even harder to get equipment to hold that tight of a tolerance.
Most tolerances that tight have to be ground. And you have to keep up with the dress on the grinder, because that's constantly changing.
When you're talking about measuring in tenths, temperature can change your measurements. Just because your mike says, .0001, doesn't mean it's highly accurate. Brown and Sharpe, Starrett, it doesn't matter the brand.
Furthermore, it's even harder to get equipment to hold that tight of a tolerance.
Most tolerances that tight have to be ground. And you have to keep up with the dress on the grinder, because that's constantly changing.
01-22-2009, 04:30 PM
#77
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Really? Thicker oil for proper ring seating? That's a new one on me.
So you were taught to build F1 engines? You do realize .0001 is one tenth of one thousandths of an inch, right?
I used to work for an Aircraft/aerospace manufacturer, and we COULD NOT hold tolerances that tight. For the parts that we made that had to be held to .0005, which is half of one thousandths, we had a temperature controlled slab we had to set our parts on for their temp to stabilize, and we could not touch them, because the heat from your hand could cause erroneous readings.
So, basically, you're full of ****. You're doing nothing but flappin your lips trying to impress.
So you were taught to build F1 engines? You do realize .0001 is one tenth of one thousandths of an inch, right?
I used to work for an Aircraft/aerospace manufacturer, and we COULD NOT hold tolerances that tight. For the parts that we made that had to be held to .0005, which is half of one thousandths, we had a temperature controlled slab we had to set our parts on for their temp to stabilize, and we could not touch them, because the heat from your hand could cause erroneous readings.
So, basically, you're full of ****. You're doing nothing but flappin your lips trying to impress.
01-22-2009, 05:26 PM
#79
I went from 10w30 break in, to 5w30 at about 2500miles, to 5w30 synthetic at 5500 miles.
Absolutely no nitrous. I was all about the N/A motor. I have had a bad experience with nitrous in the past and wanted to stay away from it. This is my DD and I drive it to work and back everyday. There has been so much snow and ice lately that it rarely see 70mph. Now it's melted and this motor just went when I had the cruise on 70 about 1 mile from work.
Absolutely no nitrous. I was all about the N/A motor. I have had a bad experience with nitrous in the past and wanted to stay away from it. This is my DD and I drive it to work and back everyday. There has been so much snow and ice lately that it rarely see 70mph. Now it's melted and this motor just went when I had the cruise on 70 about 1 mile from work.
01-22-2009, 05:44 PM
#80
TECH Fanatic
A micrometer, even in graduated tenths, is highly inaccurate. I was working in a tight tolerance machine shop when your mama was washin you in the sink.
When you're talking about measuring in tenths, temperature can change your measurements. Just because your mike says, .0001, doesn't mean it's highly accurate. Brown and Sharpe, Starrett, it doesn't matter the brand.
Furthermore, it's even harder to get equipment to hold that tight of a tolerance.
Most tolerances that tight have to be ground. And you have to keep up with the dress on the grinder, because that's constantly changing.
When you're talking about measuring in tenths, temperature can change your measurements. Just because your mike says, .0001, doesn't mean it's highly accurate. Brown and Sharpe, Starrett, it doesn't matter the brand.
Furthermore, it's even harder to get equipment to hold that tight of a tolerance.
Most tolerances that tight have to be ground. And you have to keep up with the dress on the grinder, because that's constantly changing.